CYPW gear up Ho

[Cat Driver]

Doc, until we get the pilots to go over everything that led up to the event and honestly record what they were thinking about before and during the event the answer of why it happened will remain a mystery.

For sure the causes are many and in some cases complex.....

......with two crew the need to find an answer as to cause is even more important.

[slowmo]

Well, airplanes can be repaired, but as we all know people can't. I'm glad the crew escaped alright.

It's sad to see this particular navajo all scratched up as I was the one that first flew it out of the paint shop with its new colours.

[GARRETT]

I don't know what the problem could be, that's the million dollar question. I think it's a combination of a lot of factors just like any other accident. Inexperience, although a huge issue, is all to often used to sum up an investigation.
How many gear up landings do you think large aircraft would be involved in until the implementation of GPWS? I've seen senior crew members in the sim continue on an ILS with the gear up right up until the "Too low,gear!!" warning sounds. In this case it was a loss of situational awareness due to dealing with other malfunctions like engine fires/failures, weather, icing, conflicting traffic, the list of distractions is endless. Were these Navajo pilots distracted by a non-standard situation? This is what I'm talking about Lurch, there are lots of things that lead up to the crew forgetting the gear.
Again, I'm not trying to defend pilots that forget the gear, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here.

[Doc]

Well, airplanes can be repaired,

To be honest, I hate this bloody attitude. Perhaps if the pilots had to pay the deductible portion of the insurance claim, that tune would change???? If it hurt YOUR wallet, you'd put the wheels down....wouldn't you?

[_dwj_]

How many gear up landings do you think large aircraft would be involved in until the implementation of GPWS? I've seen senior crew members in the sim continue on an ILS with the gear up right up until the "Too low,gear!!" warning sounds.

Exactly...pilots will ALWAYS make mistakes. Maybe not Doc and Cat and a few other super pilots, but in the real world most pilots aren't infallible.

As I recall (the post has been deleted), the owner of a company that had a Ho gear-up landing a while ago said he had installed some kind of gear-up warning device on all of his planes except the one that landed gear-up. I'm not familiar with what is available, but I'm guessing it is some kind of GPWS with spoken gear warning that uses a radio altimeter.

So I think operators have two choices: hope that all their pilots are 'super pilots' like Doc and Cat, and risk spending big bucks (or getting an insurance hike) when one of their pilots turns out to be not-so-super. Or they can spend a few bucks on a good technological solution to help pilots' inherently faulty memories.

[Doc]

How many gear up landings do you think large aircraft would be involved in until the implementation of GPWS? I've seen senior crew members in the sim continue on an ILS with the gear up right up until the "Too low,gear!!" warning sounds.

Exactly...pilots will ALWAYS make mistakes. Maybe not Doc and Cat and a few other super pilots, but in the real world most pilots aren't infallible.

As I recall (the post has been deleted), the owner of a company that had a Ho gear-up landing a while ago said he had installed some kind of gear-up warning device on all of his planes except the one that landed gear-up. I'm not familiar with what is available, but I'm guessing it is some kind of GPWS with spoken gear warning that uses a radio altimeter.

So I think operators have two choices: hope that all their pilots are 'super pilots' like Doc and Cat, and risk spending big bucks (or getting an insurance hike) when one of their pilots turns out to be not-so-super. Or they can spend a few bucks on a good technological solution to help pilots' inherently faulty memories.

Getting a little tired of being referred to as a "super pilot" by some ass, just because I put the gear down. Piss off!

[_dwj_]

Getting a little tired of being referred to as a "super pilot" by some ass, just because I put the gear down. Piss off!

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. The point is, you insist you will never forget the gear. Yet the facts show that there are a hell of a lot of pilots who DO forget the gear. So unless you have a foolproof method of separating the pilots like you who will never forget the gear from the ones who might, it makes sense to have precautions such as reliable gear warning devices. That's all I'm sayin, and please take my 'super-pilot' label as a compliment rather than an insult.

[Doc]

Getting a little tired of being referred to as a "super pilot" by some ass, just because I put the gear down. Piss off!

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. The point is, you insist you will never forget the gear. Yet the facts show that there are a hell of a lot of pilots who DO forget the gear. So unless you have a foolproof method of separating the pilots like you who will never forget the gear from the ones who might, it makes sense to have precautions such as reliable gear warning devices. That's all I'm sayin, and please take my 'super-pilot' label as a compliment rather than an insult.

No harm, no foul. I just feel there are certain things in life, you should just DO. Opening the garage door BEFORE you put the car in.
Removing clothes BEFORE hop in the shower.
Unzipping one's fly BEFORE you wiz...gender specific, I'll grant ya.
Put the gear down BEFORE you land.
To me, it really is that simple.

And, some have all the warning systems....and still they "forget"? I'm baffled.

[_dwj_]

No harm, no foul. I just feel there are certain things in life, you should just DO. Opening the garage door BEFORE you put the car in.
Removing clothes BEFORE hop in the shower.
Unzipping one's fly BEFORE you wiz...gender specific, I'll grant ya.
Put the gear down BEFORE you land.
To me, it really is that simple.

The difference I see is that all these things you have visual feedback except for the landing gear. If you forget it, it isn't immediately obvious until you hit the ground. Whereas when you pee or poop, you can immediately see if your pants are up or down.

And, some have all the warning systems....and still they "forget"? I'm baffled.

But as has been pointed out above, airline pilots seem to never actually land with the gear up, because they have a pretty darn good warning system.

[North Shore]

rca Airways Piper Navaho was unable to lower its landing gear and was attempting an emergency landing.

Hang on a mo...it says 'unable' to put the gear down. Unless there's some other info that I've missed, then this isn't a crew f@#kup...

Standing by to be corrected...

[reality check]

NS,

Read the CADOR.

[Carrier]

Quote: "Hang on a mo...it says 'unable' to put the gear down. Unless there's some other info that I've missed, then this isn't a crew f@#kup...
Standing by to be corrected..."

Then why did they do a known in advance gear up landing at Powell River? The logical thing to do would be to fly the aircraft back to its base where it can be readily repaired and where there were better emergency services waiting in case the gear up landing should go wrong.

Yes. I know a pilot who did this. He had the nose wheel jam in a Baron just after taking off from a remote airfield I had just left. The gear would not retract fully and it would not go back down fully. He spent a few minutes trying the emergency procedures with no success. As he had plenty of fuel he flew about 1.5 hours to the major airport where his company was based and landed on a grass runway there with minimal damage to the aircraft. It was then moved into a hangar and repaired.

[Rowdy]

Hmmm.. wipe out a runway at a major international airport for a couple of hours, fouling up tons of heavies and other trying to get back in and creating chaos for ATC. All those jets circling, holding or diverting Burning tons of unnecesary fuel. OR land and maybe disrupt one or two small piston pounders/light turboprops at the small, uncontrolled airport.

Correct me if I'm totally wrong, but a planned gear up landing shouldnt result in disaster or loss of life, unless maybe the pilot is a complete retard in the first place and sholdnt be landing even if he could get the gear down! Yes things can go a little sideways, but still, the local emergency services should be able to handle everything a navajo could throw at them.

I hope the truth comes out as to whether it was an "oops" in which case the armchairs can go wild or if it was actual mechanical issues..

[North Shore]

NS,

Read the CADOR.

Ah. Ok then.

[Cat Driver]

Exactly...pilots will ALWAYS make mistakes. Maybe not Doc and Cat and a few other super pilots,

Like Doc I take offense at your comment, and quite frankly am tired of your backhanded way of describing pilots who you for some reason do not like.

I am a high time pilot who managed to fly for a living for over half a century by being a pilot who did his job in a safe correct manner and that includes making sure the gear was in the correct position for the surface I was landing on...every time..

As to warning devices most of the airplanes I flew had none.

I have around ten thousand hours on the DC3 and the PBY collectively and neither of them had gear warning devices, we had competent crew members who followed the proper checks during flight.

[MichaelP]

The landing gear was not selected down before landing. The aircraft touched down on its belly, slid for about 200 feet down the runway and was substantially damaged.

This sort of thing will happen as long as pilots are human.

But help in prevention is in training.
I hope I never never have egg on my face over this:

When I learned to fly at Exeter Flying Club in the lowly Cessna 150 I had to learn my pretakeoff checks and my prelanding checks before I could go solo.
I called these checks out and they have kept me safe since then and I've flown a lot of funny aeroplanes with retractable undercarriages.
BUMMCPFFGGHH

"Brakes are off, Undercarriage down, Mags on, Mixture... etc"

If we go back to these old RAF checks and call them out then there's less likelihood of a gear up landing.

Then the Americans had a good one: "Reds, Blues, Greens". I get the students to call this out on finals, especially as our little aeroplanes have a propeller pitch control.

Then there was the Cessna 206 on amphibs!
Fresh PPL owner, serious aeroplane for a newbie!

"Brakes off, Undercarriage Down this is a land landing, check the indicator, look to the front of the float, check the mirror roll the aircraft to see..."
or
"Brakes off, Undercarriage Up, this is a water landing, check the indicator, look to the front of the float, check the mirror roll the aircraft to see..."

He had already learned the RAF checks during his private in the C172 on wheels... He was my student after all!

So first habits come from initial training.
We make a big mistake when we train someone to fly a Cessna 152.
We do a good job if we train a pilot to fly aeroplanes while using a Cessna 152 (or Katana!).

I learned in a Cessna 150, but I was trained to fly aeroplanes... 40 minutes to check out in a tailwheel!

I always see it as a problem that all the schools use different checklists. In UK days all the checklists were written to follow the same order as the RAF ones developed in the war.

Good procedures properly learned and practiced prevent many accidents.

[yycflyguy]

Quote: "Hang on a mo...it says 'unable' to put the gear down. Unless there's some other info that I've missed, then this isn't a crew f@#kup...
Standing by to be corrected..."

Then why did they do a known in advance gear up landing at Powell River? The logical thing to do would be to fly the aircraft back to its base where it can be readily repaired and where there were better emergency services waiting in case the gear up landing should go wrong.

Do we know what fuel they had? Did they file IFR with an alternate? Even if they did file IFR back to point of departure (YVR, right?) Did they actual have the fuel in the tanks they were legal supposed to carry?

Rowdy:
Given the choice, take the airport with the most readily available emergency services. Don't give a second thought to others when you declare a pan-pan or mayday - the world is yours. Do what it takes to get the men and equipment you might need. Other carriers should be planning on this one in a thousand possibility that a runway, or even an entire airport gets closed, and it really is no big deal to go to alternate.

[MichaelP]

I quoted directly from the CADORs above

The CADORs wrote: "The landing gear was not selected down before landing.".

Non selection of the gear is not a preknown problem!

[_dwj_]

Like Doc I take offense at your comment, and quite frankly am tired of your backhanded way of describing pilots who you for some reason do not like.

Who said I didn't like you? I'm simply pointing out that most pilots might forget the landing gear, but you said you will never do that, so therefore you are a much better pilot than most. 'super pilot' was just my catchy way of describing that fact, and wasn't intended as an insult.

For some reason you seem to have something against me - every time I post something you invariably post a snide reply.

[Doc]

Rowdy:
Given the choice, take the airport with the most readily available emergency services. Don't give a second thought to others when you declare a pan-pan or mayday - the world is yours. Do what it takes to get the men and equipment you might need. Other carriers should be planning on this one in a thousand possibility that a runway, or even an entire airport gets closed, and it really is no big deal to go to alternate.

yycflyguy is totally correct. You deal with your problem any way you like. Go to the airport with the best equipment. Don't let the other guys even enter your mind. The sky is YOURS.

[Cat Driver]

I'm simply pointing out that most pilots might forget the landing gear, but you said you will never do that,

You are wrong, very wrong I have never said that I will never land with the gear in the wrong position, I have said I never have.

so therefore you are a much better pilot than most.

Most pilots do not land with the gear in the wrong position therefore I am in the normal pilot catagory.

'super pilot' was just my catchy way of describing that fact, and wasn't intended as an insult.

I do not believe you.

For some reason you seem to have something against me - every time I post something you invariably post a snide reply.

What really turned me against you was your attack in Hedley, if you want to know the truth I do not like your style..

Lets let it go there because this will end up edited if we keep it up.

[Invertago]

Getting a little tired of being referred to as a "super pilot" by some ass, just because I put the gear down. Piss off!

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. The point is, you insist you will never forget the gear. Yet the facts show that there are a hell of a lot of pilots who DO forget the gear. So unless you have a foolproof method of separating the pilots like you who will never forget the gear from the ones who might, it makes sense to have precautions such as reliable gear warning devices. That's all I'm sayin, and please take my 'super-pilot' label as a compliment rather than an insult.

No harm, no foul. I just feel there are certain things in life, you should just DO. Opening the garage door BEFORE you put the car in.
Removing clothes BEFORE hop in the shower.
Unzipping one's fly BEFORE you wiz...gender specific, I'll grant ya.
Put the gear down BEFORE you land.
To me, it really is that simple.

And, some have all the warning systems....and still they "forget"? I'm baffled.

and not retracting your 'gear' before you zip it up is even worse

[Doc]

Someone, I think it was _dwj_ asked me what sets me apart. While it works for me, I don't know if I'd like to see others following suit. I don't use, and never have used memory aids. I don't like mnemonics. I find them to be crutches. I know you all use "GUMPS" for example. Since I'd spend more time trying to remember what the "G" stands for than acting on it, I tossed out such childish things. I just "do it". Works for me.

[xsbank]

GUMPF
gas gauges undercarriage mixture mags pumps props flaps flaps (Cowls) etc.

Hey Doc, they do work, for some, especially if it is a simple airplane that you don't need a sim for!

[Doc]

GUMPF
gas gauges undercarriage mixture mags pumps props flaps flaps (Cowls) etc.

Sure wouldn't want to miss the gas gauges on short final! And if the gas gauges are u/s, are you going to do a missed? As a landing check, the flaps and gear you want. The props and mixture you could do without. Really. Makes me think we are demanding too much from these poor lads? They can't even remember the gear, and you want them to remember the whole shooting match? Come up with a memory aid for JUST the gear.
GDOTWRMAOAVCANADA.
Gear down or they will roast my ass on avcanada!