To the few disillusioned instructors out there...

Dyck Hertz · Post by **Dyck Hertz** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:39 am

booter wrote:...Are you FUC@ING MAD? I would love to have a few beer with you so I could drill some sence into that over puffed up head...I hate FU@KING instructors who think they know this industry. Give me a break...

ummmm booter I wanna say someting to you right know.......meeeeeoowwww!!!!! i would like to go out for beers right now. you cna buy i'll sit there and listen if you keep bringin the beers

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:53 pm

King Air Guy wrote: But at the same time, other than getting a really good base of knowledge and your scan/SA sharpened, you still lack real experience. By that I mean decisions based on weather, weight, stress put on you by customers and management. Extra persons showing up drunk or disorderly, black hole approaches and or circling approaches in bad weather. Decisions on real fuel management and alternates, ridiculous crosswinds, runways in poor condition, Icing conditions and thunderstorms. Even dealing with another pilot at your side. I could on for some time.

So how is instructing time not experience in this case? As the instructor you're always making decisiions based on weather, but in a lot of cases you have to be a lot more careful with it when dealing with students - you're setting an example for them after all. Not to mention trying to predict it well ahead of time so you don't have students showing up for flights and then having to cancel on them. The difference between a ten and a fifteen knot crosswind doesn't make much difference to most licenced pilots, but sure as hell does for someone's first solo. And no weight and balance? You ever have to give some three hundred pound guy the explanation on why the 152 isn't suitable for his flight training? Especially when he thinks all you're trying to do is screw him out of the extra fifteen bucks to fly the 172? Have you never had a student show up for a flight drunk or hung over? Unlike most charter flying where leaving the person in question on the ground is simply a matter of PDM and the flight continues - when an instructor does it he a) doesn't get to fly or be paid, and b) risks losing the student. Same with every other decision you make regarding working with your customers - because that's what the students are - customers. And lastly an instructor is always dealing with working in a cockpit with another pilot - or almost pilot as the case may be. And unlike your co-pilot whom you may berate for his stupidity, arrogance and general bad attitude - as an instructor you grin and bear it.

I can't think of a better primer for working in a two person cockpit personally. One just has to realize that instructors, or pilots who were instructors are just like any other group of people, some are losers, some are winners. Hopefully you get to fly with the latter. I mean there are some 737 pilots out there with tons of time I wouldn't want in the right seat simply because of their attitude, yet there's a few students I'd gladly take there because of the same reason.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:10 pm

Shiny Side Up, I hear what your saying, and again coming from an instructional background I agree it is a good primer. But don’t confuse primer with actual experience.

As the thread is named, this thread is directed towards those few who think because they can teach little Johnny to do a 15KT crosswind in a C152, and hold a class 1 instructor rating with 2000 TT, there ready to jump into the left seat of a multi turbine aircraft. There not. Not the average instructor who has a good attitude and knows it’s a primer.

Instructing is good for learning a few tricks and rules of thumb, developing a solid background for IFR (rules and SA), truly getting an understanding on what the term “attitude + power=performance” means (which only an instructor really understands), and getting some PIC time for those A’s. But honestly, that’s it.
Now if your doing both instructing and flying the line, that would be extremely beneficial to the student as your learning how the real world works and passing it on.

And believe me when I tell you deciding to go do circuits with little Johnny, or shoot some approaches are not the same as deciding to do a charter in bad weather to an unfamiliar airport with pushy customers and management. Same METAR/TAF, two different trains of thought, with different pressures.

Cheers.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:22 pm

King Air Guy wrote:...this thread is directed towards those few who think because they can teach little Johnny to do a 15KT crosswind in a C152...

15 kts? Are you crazy? I don't think I could handle that... I'd probably do a forced landing in a nearby field that was into wind, or stay up until the wind changed direction or died down.

I must not have had one of these "dream" instructors!

On a serious note, KAG, I agree with you 100%.

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:31 pm

Not really, in both situations the pilot, be him instructor or charter is making a weather based, operational based or safety based decision - often one that will be at odds with what the customer wants. I've had discussions with students who wanted to go out and "Try a few circuits" in the same weather that you might be telling an oilfield big-wig that "no we're not taking off in zero- zero just because you have to get to the meeting on time. (In a lot of cases I've found that the student in question might indeed be an oil field big-wig, but that's another story) In the charter case - you decision is final, because lets face it he still needs your airplane and will probably have the charter done anyways. With the instructor you now just might have put yourself out of a job - I've seen students file through instructors and schools to will find one that will always say yes - and they are out there. Now which pilot has more operational pressure on them to do the flight or is penalized more for making the decision?

No offense King Air Guy, but I think you've forgotten what its like to instruct full time. Not that that changes the fact that yes some assholes out there think their instructor experience gets them a special place elsewhere in the aviation world, but I think you're being a little harsh on them as a group because of a few bad apples. You said you yourself used to instruct - did the first captain you flew right seat with think the same thing?

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:46 pm

Shiny Side Up, none taken.
The first company I flew a king air with was Voyageur (1999), which hired nothing but instructors. My captains and copilots were all instructors. The entire base I worked at was all instructors, and a bunch of good guys and gals at that.

I also fail to see what if any relevance my time away from instructing has to do with this argument. Do you think things have changed that drastically in 5 years, that the new breed of instructors are making the type of decisions that say a 703/704 pilot is making? I don’t think so. It’s not rocket science, but it’s not something that you learn banging around the circuit either…it’s a good start, but not quite as in-depth.

Don’t get me wrong this isn’t a pissing contest, nor is it instructor bashing (like I’ve said a few times). Talk to any instructor that has moved on and has some time under their belt. They all say the same thing, instructing is fun, and good for the previously mentioned points, and that’s it. But again, get some experience (other than instructing) under your belt, And maybe you’ll see things a little different. I certainly do.

Cheers.

PS...

quote- "No offense King Air Guy, but I think you've forgotten what its like to instruct full time. Not that that changes the fact that yes some assholes out there think their instructor experience gets them a special place elsewhere in the aviation world, but I think you're being a little harsh on them as a group because of a few bad apples. You said you yourself used to instruct - did the first captain you flew right seat with think the same thing?"...

the few assholes is exactly who im refering to with this thread, not all instructors.

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:46 pm

Point taken KAG, I'm just saying that I don't think their time as instructors really has anything to do with them being assholes is all - it might make them a bigger asshole, but definitely isn't the source. Its like a modification of the old saying: Its not that all pilots are assholes, it just happens that a lot of assholes fly.

For the record although a majority of my time is instructing I do have a fair amount of charter work as well - I always look at charter stuff as a vacation from the instructing. My decisions there get a lot more respect and the customers are a lot easier to deal with, and lastly a whole less riskier - I mean none of them have tried to kill me yet... Knock on wood.

homerj · Post by **homerj** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:41 am

The bottom line is instructers should be experienced pros to teach the inexperienced.

Would you take a university class from a "student" ?

homerj · Post by **homerj** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:43 am

In other words,

I wish they would raise the requirment for the rating!

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:26 am

homerj wrote: Would you take a university class from a "student" ?

Actually, they do get PHD and Masters students to teach undergraduate classes. I'm not trying to digress, just trying to point out that Flight Instruction is not the oinly place that you see the inexperienced teach the new. It happens everywhere.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:40 am

Nor was this intended to knock the lower time instructor, Which at one time we all were.

master switch · Post by **master switch** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:32 am

you heard it here folks, dispatchers make better pilots than people who fly planes (aka pilots).

LoadFactor2 · Post by **LoadFactor2** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:18 pm

How many FA's have their Licence? Shouldn't they be given a shot at right seat as well?

flyboy · Post by **flyboy** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:06 am

Hey Kag, I do believe we used to work across the ramp from each other, and had the odd smoke while watching our students solo...

I agree with your comments, most of the time I like it when the company I work for hires instructors, especially those that were teaching mifr. I feel it's sometimes easier to teach someone with good ifr skills and knowledge how to fly in the north than to take a float guy and try and teach him how to fly single pilot ifr.

but like you say every once in awhile you get a guy that thinks he's seen it all and it can be quite frustrating.

my.02

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:05 pm

Instructing experience is good experience for instructing.

Practical IFR experience is good for Practical IFR.

It all depends on what your long term goal is, and how you define experience. If you move from one realm to the other, either way, you will again need to learn. If I were back when I was a student pilot learning slow flight and stalls, I would rather have someone with a some recent experience teaching me those exercises. In the coming years when hopefully I'm sitting right seat in a larger aircraft I hope to have someone with lots of IFR and operational experience sitting next to me.

My opionion is you learn by doing. If you want to learn IFR, then you do it. If you want to learn to instruct, then instruct. One doesn't make you worthy of the other.