CYPW gear up Ho

[Doc]

Here we go again. Doc are you noticing yet that your attitude has offended many different guys on here? Didn't think so. Then when opinions are expressed as to why it might be happening your basic ideology that "I put the gear down everytime so everyone else is stupid" comes through. Several different posters have tried to give you examples of how/where it could/has happened but you just aint listening.

Keep up the good fight with the blinders on

Ah young yycflyguy, offending people is my aim. It's my intention to be a "thorn in the paw of stupidity". Shit, that's good...it's MINE! You can only use it with written permission!

[yycflyguy]

Here we go again. Doc are you noticing yet that your attitude has offended many different guys on here? Didn't think so. Then when opinions are expressed as to why it might be happening your basic ideology that "I put the gear down everytime so everyone else is stupid" comes through. Several different posters have tried to give you examples of how/where it could/has happened but you just aint listening.

Keep up the good fight with the blinders on

Ah young yycflyguy, offending people is my aim. It's my intention to be a "thorn in the paw of stupidity". Shit, that's good...it's MINE! You can only use it with written permission!

By all means carry on then. You seem to have it nailed. Stick with what you're good at.

How many more years till retirement?

[iflyforpie]

Dust Devil another saying that drives me nuts is.

" There are those who have landed gear up and those who are going to. "

It is astounding how many pilots use that one.

Who thinks up such rubbish?

Actually I use that one, but as a mechanic's advise to prospective private aircraft owners.

Between forgetting the gear and mechanical problems, I'd say a good third of the private retractable-gear aircraft I've worked on have been on their bellies at least one time previously (ironically the worst offender seems to be the Piper Arrow, with its supposedly idiot-proof automatic gear). The added insurance and maintenance costs vs the minimal speed gain aren't worth the risk for most private pilots.

One day, you are going to forget the gear? You're right, absolute rubbish!

Don't forget the gear!

[Cat Driver]

Maybe I am completely wrong about this retractable gear thing and should just accept that eventually I am going to forget to check the gear position.

I wonder what the real percentage is of pilots who have landed gear up and those who have not.

If there are more who have not than those who have I will be able to sleep better as the pressure of wondering when my turn will come will be less.

[jjj]

Doc,

Page after page on a few threads and you have yet to come up with any real insight to this issue that goes beyond sanctimonious rhetoric. Denkauto (see above a ways) among others seems to have that perspective on your posts, it's not just yycflyguy and me.

Whether we respond passionately or logically all we get from you is the same tired old argument. I and others have said that there are extenuating circumstances that must be considered before throwing stones. Not all gear up incidents can be lumped together for you to criticize with your holier than thou attitude.

We make no excuses for the dim-witted or those that slip through the flight checking process or those who work complacently time and time again. However we know that by default a belly skid does not automatically enter you into one of the aforementioned groups.

Cheers.

JJJ

[denkauto]

Wholeheartedly agree with the above. Working in the environment we do sometimes has a strange effect on people. We can easily become creatures of habit. I have seen on numerous occasions and been guilty of myself getting caught in some unique situations (Not including leaving the gear up, so don’t slam me) It usually happens at a precise moment in time when something is suppose to happen and because of a significant distraction, it does not. Very quickly our minds shift to other things like being short final or a distracting radio call and the opportunity to recognize the above has vanished. If there is no functioning piece of technology to bring the omission to light, and accident can occur. Is it right, no, is it good or no big deal to bend airplanes, of course it is not. My thinking on this is that it needs to be addressed because I have seen some pretty good pilots and crews forget seemingly obvious things under just the right circumstances.

[Dust Devil]

However we know that by default a belly skid does not automatically enter you into one of the aforementioned groups.

Cheers.

JJJ

I agree 100% If it's a mechanical issue you can still be a "super pilot"

"forget" to put that handle with the big wheel on it in the correct position then you fail and belong in the aforementioned group.

It really is that simple.

[Dust Devil]

I have seen some pretty good pilots and crews forget seemingly obvious things under just the right circumstances.

This is an honest question and is no way intended to come across as a smart ass but how do you define a good pilot?

[Cat Driver]

However we know that by default a belly skid does not automatically enter you into one of the aforementioned groups.

Cheers.

JJJ

Everyone agrees that we are all subject to making mistakes especially under circumstances that vary from the norm.

However until we get a look into what led up to each of these accidents we will never know why they made such a basic mistake as forgetting to check the gear position before landing.

When these gear up landings happen we never really find out what the pilots were thinking at the time that caused them to forget to check the gear position.

What we need is a mechanism whereby these pilots can take all the time they need to relate exactly what caused them to screw up so badly.

What we get silence and few ever hear what became of these crews but there sure is lots of arguing back and forth about the event.

Maybe if the pilots had a mechanism where they could relate exactly what happened we would all benefit.

[snoopy]

A "good" pilot IMHO is one who exhibits at least the following qualities:

good airmanship;
good knowledge and respect for applicable regs;
good knowledge and respect for manufacturer's information, specifications, limitations and emergency procedures;
good hands and feet;
a sixth sense;
good situational awareness;
concern for the safety and comfort of all on board;
concern for the well-being of the ship and all its associated parts and equipment;
concern for the well-being of those affected by the ship's operation;
professional attitude and demeanor;
respect for others and one's self;
patience - if not in "civilian life", at least where the aircraft is concerned;
good at effective multi-tasking;
when necessary can "fly-by-the-seat-of the-pants";
has the good sense to know when "there but for the grace of god (or whomever) go I" and be thankful they didn't go there;
for those times when all else fails, has a very large horseshoe wedged firmly up their ass;
good ethics;
respect for and awareness of human failings;
a realization they are mortal, and subject to human failings;
an appreciation of others who enable them to fly;
a sense of humor...


Feel free to add...

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[AEROBAT]

Personaly I like the FAA/NTSB way of reporting accidents. They usually give the pilots perspective of what was happening before the crash, if he was alive afterwards, and any witnesses who were present. CADORS seem rather cryptic in comparison. Usually it is followed by a quote from someone who was not even at the scene during the event.

[Doc]

What becomes of them? Some get canned. Some get promoted. Some go to work for Transport Canada.

[Cat Driver]

I hope I live long enough to find out why that Dash 8 went off the end of that ten thousand foot runway because that was unusual to say the least.

[denkauto]

DD I think we both know what a good pilot is. Somebody above gave a couple of great examples. I have flown the Navajo enough to know that landing with the gear up is a very very very hard thing to do. The fact that it happens is shocking, but it does, and I will argue that all people who leave the gear up are not morons. There is a reason, if it can happen, it will, that is not to say it should or that we should just be relaxed about it but it is a fact of life, people in our profession continue to prove this. I hope it never happens to you, I hope none of your airplanes ever get damaged and it is nice to know your pilots are paid well. But keep a very small place in your mind open to the fact that just maybe, it will happen to you. Being a Navajo operator I would think you of all people would be the first to look at ways to prevent this from happening again. But I think I know your answer to that, you just hire good pilots, good pilots that aren’t like these morons who left the gear up

[denkauto]

Just want to reiterate the last line of the above post is sarcasm. I do not know the pilots in question but I would personally find it hard to believe they are both fools.

[Dust Devil]

Being a Navajo operator I would think you of all people would be the first to look at ways to prevent this from happening again. But I think I know your answer to that, you just hire good pilots, good pilots that aren’t like these morons who left the gear up

Hiring good pilots is a key but we also discuss these things openly and frequently. Usually when the plane comes back to base for maintenance we frequently discuss things we read in the safety letter and even just incidents we hear about in the grape vine.

It's unfortunate SMS has been stalled by some as these are the sorts of things an SMS could help prevent.

[Jastapilot]

Things on a Ho I'd never trust:

The fuel gauges
The Trim indicator
The autopilot(especially SIFR)
The 'Gear Not Down' warning horn

[snoopy]

For the record, SMS deserves to be stopped if it is to be the sole means of regulation/oversight as TC intends, and if it is to be installed in advance of appropriate parliamentary approval and performance protections put in place. This is the reason that several among us fought so hard to stop the implementation of SMS for the time being - at least until such time as we fix our regulator and oversight failings.

SMS has its place, and I for one hope that once our regulator & oversight issues are rectified, that SMS will be included in partnership with, and not in place of, regulatory oversight in Canadian Aviation.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Dust Devil]

For the record, SMS deserves to be stopped if it is to be the sole means of regulation/oversight as TC intends, and if it is to be installed in advance of appropriate parliamentary approval and performance protections put in place. This is the reason that several among us fought so hard to stop the implementation of SMS for the time being - at least until such time as we fix our regulator and oversight failings.

SMS has its place, and I for one hope that once our regulator & oversight issues are rectified, that SMS will be included in partnership with, and not in place of, regulatory oversight in Canadian Aviation.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

I understand the concerns with SMS being all that is in place but I don't understand scraping part of the solution in favor of no solution. We are currently operating with essentially nothing at the moment. No mandated sms other than what the cars mandates which really isn't much. and no oversight as TC currently treats everyone as if they have sms and thus does not audit.

[sky's the limit]

Flipping through this thread all I can say is wow.

Is this really what it's come to? We have two experienced sides arguing virtually the same thing, with practically the same motive, yet becoming more and more polarized in their arguments making both groups sound somewhat silly for lack of a better word.

This can, and should, be a much better discussion. At this point all I see are egos getting in the way of a potentially very valuable thread.

This isn't just about gear handle positions, this can be extrapolated into almost every area of flying. You guys are dealing with one movement of one handle at a critical time, what happens when you're flying in demanding, fluid environments that are fraught with pressure and ever changing conditions? How do pilots who fly in these applications every day manage a far greater number of critical operations safely and without fail when so many seem to be having issues with simple gear leavers?

Maybe we should ask some of them? There are more ways to kill yourself in a helicopter than you can think of, both Cat and Snoopy know some of this. How is it that in extremely dynamic rotary work environments that most airplane pilots couldn't imagine (I couldn't even coming from a FW mountain/off-strip background) there are a great many pilots who manage it daily/monthly/yearly in abject safety?

Both sides of this have very very valid points (Cat, Doc, DD, vs JJJ, YCC, and the new guy). I know several of you personally, I respect each one of you as pilots, how about we try to add some value to this for a change? There are points being made that deserve attention, and there are many being made that deserve to be picked apart in their frivolity, I'll refrain from that however. Most importantly, there are a great many young pilots reading this.... we as experienced aviators can do better.

Imho there are many pertinent stones left to be uncovered in this discussion - question is, does anybody want to go there without shit slinging and attitude?

stl

[Cougar]

Very well said STL, and thank you.

I've tried to post here several times, but feel like my head has been a cheap basketball, bouncing back and forth. I do get many of the thoughts which have been raised; there are many GOOD points being brought up. And, that can only be good, right? We all keep learning...

I'm still not sure how to word what I want to say, but I'm going to TRY, here.

I've compared myself to every pilot I've ever known -- I do not know if that is healthy, and I'm no shrink, so, who the hell knows? But, I started out wanting to be whom? My CFI, my instructor, who was a conscientious and responsible sort. I tried hard to learn from the good pilots I met, and by this, I used the criterion that if they were respected by most of the pilots I already knew, well, then they were good, also -- the salty-yet-humbled ones, the ones who managed to stay alive. These were all old fire guys, ex-Vietnam helitack guys, medevac pilots, rescue pilots, etc. I wanted to KNOW WHAT THEY KNEW.

Well, I certainly can't say I am a greenhorn anymore, even though I truly feel that THE MORE I LEARN, THE MORE I SEE HOW MUCH MORE THERE IS TO LEARN.

So -- my point (not specific to the gear-up, but to a broader sense):
I know idiots who have wrecked airplanes, and idiots who have killed themselves.
I know superb pilots who have wrecked airplanes, and superb pilots who have killed themselves.
How do I explain this to myself??

All I can conclude is that, we all make mistakes, and if the mistake happens at an unforgivingly bad moment in the flight, then we may not be able to redeem ourselves or our machine AT ALL. If, as I am sure is much more common, the mistake happens at a benign moment of the flight, we make yet another of our millions of corrections, and we fly on. Normally, we think nothing of it.

I apologize that I am not more articluate. This conversation has been going on in my head ever since the first crash where a good pilot I knew was killed. I was a young pilot; we had trained together. And, over 31 years later, with many, many friends now gone, I am still looking for the perfect answer to this sad, yet seemingly eternal, question: "I'm down in the trees, too, and THOSE guys were good --- so, what am I doing here?"

So, making a mistake makes you human. I can't buy the argument that if they're dead, they were terrible pilots. There are too many fine ones I know who simply belie that argument, to me.

Please forgive me if this is too much rambling. I should've started with a couple of beers.

[Cat Driver]

Here is how I try and stay alive.

Always plan the next flight from the time you know you are going to do it till it is over.

Get to know every loose rivet and every oil stain on the machine you are flying and ""LOOK ALL OVER THE THING " on every walk around, if you see some small change look closer and determine what has changed.

Never forget the killer items on the pre flight check and the pre landing check.

Think of your aircraft as being a train on rails and in your mind look ahead and project the rails ahead of you in three dimensions and fly the machine on the rails, if it gets off the rails fly the fuc.ing thing back on the rails.

Don't over complicate things as they will do that all by them self.

When you fu.k up admit it to yourself talk to others about your fu.k up and learn from it.

Try to avoid arguing with trolls.

[nimbostratus]

In my experience, just because someone has driven their whole life without an accident, it doesn't mean they are a good driver.

Same applies to airplanes.

I make my own judgements about the quality of a pilot by flying with him/her. Granted an employer doesn't always have this opportunity. I feel for you DD. I think your are misunderstood a bit on this site. I would be willing to wager that you are a good employer. I just wonder what your reaction will be one day when, God forbid, one of your long time friends/employees makes the "G" mistake.

I've flown with lots of accident free guys out there that really make me wonder, and several pilots who I hold in high regard have had accidents.

In the end we are all human and we can all learn from each other. Many people will not come forth with their story after a gear-up. After this thread I think I have an idea why.

Nimbo.

[Doc]

STL has some valid points. I'm just going to make sure my gear always goes down. On this subject...bye all.

[Cat Driver]

In my experience, just because someone has driven their whole life without an accident, it doesn't mean they are a good driver.

Same applies to airplanes.

So am I to take it that there are no good drivers or pilots and never having wrecked something is just an anomaly and the person is blessed with good luck and these people are abnormal?

But if you wreck something then you are just normal?