CYPW gear up Ho

[nimbostratus]

In my experience, just because someone has driven their whole life without an accident, it doesn't mean they are a good driver.

Same applies to airplanes.

So am I to take it that there are no good drivers or pilots and never having wrecked something is just an anomaly and the person is blessed with good luck and these people are abnormal?

But if you wreck something then you are just normal?

No Cat, you don't seem to understand at all. (My previous post was not directed at you by the way.)
Many pilots who have not had accidents in their careers are excellent pilots. Many are not. I am simply saying that an accident free record does not equal an excellent pilot.

Calling people morons/idiots etc will not prevent the next accident (and again Cat, I know that you know this). People on this thread seem to be stating time and again that the gear is the most important thing prior to landing. I wish it were that simple.
Not landing with full flap could turn out to be a deadlier mistake in some conditions. Flying an approach at Ref in gusty conditions without selecting full flap could lead to a stall/spin wrecking the airplane and killing everyone.

A gear up landing could have the same result, but that would be a less likely outcome. Perhaps we could constructively try to nip these kinds of accidents in the bud rather than sinking to the lows of some posters on this forum.

No pilot on this site thinks landing gear up is OK. It seems to me that some posters are not willing to accept the fact that they can learn anything from a gear up accident. Ever been in a class and the guy sitting next to you doesn't pay attention because they "already know the material" and then they fail the final exam...

And finally Cat, I would have liked to fly with you at some point. I'm sure after reading many, many posts from you that I could learn a lot spending time in a cockpit with you. You are obviously very experienced and have a good head on your shoulders. I have to admit I find your posts condescending at times, but I think that is a result of taking abuse from the less mature folks that also post on this site. When I've looked past the tone, there are lots of good "nuggets of wisdom" in your replies. You do seem open to learning. Others on this site don't have the maturity or have an ego so big that if any more information is placed in their brains, it will affect the weight and balance of their aircraft, and they may not fit through the entry door.

In my books, all checklists should be completed by the FAF or it's go-around time. Seemingly innocuos items can come back to bite you in the plane I fly. And BTW when people say it's only bent metal, they aren't saying it is acceptable, they are saying it is replaceable. A human life is not. Maybe once we stop accidents that cause the majority of the fatalities we can hammer out this one too. How about a thread on CFIT or jet upset?

Love always,

Nimbo

[Cat Driver]

Nimbo you and I are in agreement on this subject....and you are correct I sometimes get proactive attitude wise because of the number of times I have been forced to.

[iflyforpie]

In my experience, just because someone has driven their whole life without an accident, it doesn't mean they are a good driver.

Same applies to airplanes.

So am I to take it that there are no good drivers or pilots and never having wrecked something is just an anomaly and the person is blessed with good luck and these people are abnormal?

But if you wreck something then you are just normal?

No Cat, you don't seem to understand at all. (My previous post was not directed at you by the way.)
Many pilots who have not had accidents in their careers are excellent pilots. Many are not. I am simply saying that an accident free record does not equal an excellent pilot.

Calling people morons/idiots etc will not prevent the next accident (and again Cat, I know that you know this). People on this thread seem to be stating time and again that the gear is the most important thing prior to landing. I wish it were that simple.
Not landing with full flap could turn out to be a deadlier mistake in some conditions. Flying an approach at Ref in gusty conditions without selecting full flap could lead to a stall/spin wrecking the airplane and killing everyone.

A gear up landing could have the same result, but that would be a less likely outcome. Perhaps we could constructively try to nip these kinds of accidents in the bud rather than sinking to the lows of some posters on this forum.

No pilot on this site thinks landing gear up is OK. It seems to me that some posters are not willing to accept the fact that they can learn anything from a gear up accident. Ever been in a class and the guy sitting next to you doesn't pay attention because they "already know the material" and then they fail the final exam...

And finally Cat, I would have liked to fly with you at some point. I'm sure after reading many, many posts from you that I could learn a lot spending time in a cockpit with you. You are obviously very experienced and have a good head on your shoulders. I have to admit I find your posts condescending at times, but I think that is a result of taking abuse from the less mature folks that also post on this site. When I've looked past the tone, there are lots of good "nuggets of wisdom" in your replies. You do seem open to learning. Others on this site don't have the maturity or have an ego so big that if any more information is placed in their brains, it will affect the weight and balance of their aircraft, and they may not fit through the entry door.

In my books, all checklists should be completed by the FAF or it's go-around time. Seemingly innocuos items can come back to bite you in the plane I fly. And BTW when people say it's only bent metal, they aren't saying it is acceptable, they are saying it is replaceable. A human life is not. Maybe once we stop accidents that cause the majority of the fatalities we can hammer out this one too. How about a thread on CFIT or jet upset?

Love always,

Nimbo

Awesome post!

[denkauto]

Some good stuff here. As for Cat, DD and Doc, all three of you are clearly successful pilots, you have all "made it" in this industry and that in itself is something to be proud of. What I think gets past successful people like you sometimes is that there are a wide range of people in this industry, there are some great pilots and some not so great pilots, remember not so great does not always mean they don’t belong. I have seen some guys who try very hard and are safe even if they lack a bit feel sometimes. I have also seem some who have god given talent but can’t seem to appreciate that things still need to be done properly.

We have to train and design things to accommodate the lowest common denominator. The lowest common denominator usually still being pretty good at most levels; in fact I would say we all fit that description sometimes.

Make things fool proof, so fool proof in fact that it would almost be impossible to miss. Food for thought.

[Cat Driver]

We have to train and design things to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

And then we must accept that pilots flying in the commercial segment of aviation are no higher in intelligence or motor skills than a ditch digger?

[denkauto]

Cat, you would be a great reporter for FOX news. Try not to take what I am saying out of context. Would you agree there are different levels of pilots flying in the commercial sector? Another point worth making is some of the guys I have met who now fly jets across the country did in fact dig ditches or lay concrete before coming into this profession.

I am sensing a rebuttal that goes something like this, “instead of making rules to fit the lowest common denominator, just get rid of the lowest common denominator”. Am I close, I just don’t think this profession provides enough to attract NASA astronauts?

[sky's the limit]

We have to train and design things to accommodate the lowest common denominator. The lowest common denominator usually still being pretty good at most levels; in fact I would say we all fit that description sometimes.

Make things fool proof, so fool proof in fact that it would almost be impossible to miss. Food for thought.

This is a statement I have to wholeheartedly disagree with, in the nicest possible way however...

This attitude is the bane of our existence imho, not just in aviation but throughout our entire culture. Mediocrity is NOT something that we should be striving for, in terms of flying ability, social structure, food (you ever spend time in camps? can't get anything that tastes because the lowest common denominator rule), politics, the works. It's a sure fire way to find oneself on the path to decline.

Flying is not a game where I would for one instant be comfortable accepting the "lowest common denominator." Instead of dumbing things down even further to accommodate, we need to take the opposite tack and raise the bar - this applies to all aspects of aviation.

stl

Edited to add: All the fancy design concepts and buzz word laden training will never replace simple, good, airmanship. Nor should they.

[snoopy]

Hence good airmanship was listed first in my definition of a "good" pilot...

A "good" pilot IMHO is one who exhibits at least the following qualities:

good airmanship;
good knowledge and respect for applicable regs;
good knowledge and respect for manufacturer's information, specifications, limitations and emergency procedures;
good hands and feet;
a sixth sense;
good situational awareness;
concern for the safety and comfort of all on board;
concern for the well-being of the ship and all its associated parts and equipment;
concern for the well-being of those affected by the ship's operation;
professional attitude and demeanor;
respect for others and one's self;
patience - if not in "civilian life", at least where the aircraft is concerned;
good at effective multi-tasking;
when necessary can "fly-by-the-seat-of the-pants";
has the good sense to know when "there but for the grace of god (or whomever) go I" and be thankful they didn't go there;
for those times when all else fails, has a very large horseshoe wedged firmly up their ass;
good ethics;
respect for and awareness of human failings;
a realization they are mortal, and subject to human failings;
an appreciation of others who enable them to fly;
a sense of humor...


Feel free to add...

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Big Pistons Forever]

deleted

[Big Pistons Forever]

Edited to add: All the fancy design concepts and buzz word laden training will never replace simple, good, airmanship. Nor should they.

Pilots are not born with "simple good airmanship" those skills are largely taught, and the fundamentals of "airmanship" are aquired during PPL training. Many skills and much flying knowledge can be misapplied or poorly utilized, so the problem is not with "All the fancy design concepts and buzz word laden training" it is when they are used as a substitute for crtical thinking. Understanding how people learn makes for better pilot training and those concepts which you so mock, when utilized appropriately, makes for better better pilot training and ultimately will greatly reduce the instances of what is really one of the most preventable of all accidents.

[sky's the limit]

Edited to add: All the fancy design concepts and buzz word laden training will never replace simple, good, airmanship. Nor should they.

Pilots are not born with "simple good airmanship" those skills are largely taught, and the fundamentals of "airmanship" are aquired during PPL training. Many skills and much flying knowledge can be misapplied or poorly utilized, so the problem is not with "All the fancy design concepts and buzz word laden training" it is when they are used as a substitute for crtical thinking. Understanding how people learn makes for better pilot training and those concepts which you so mock, when utilized appropriately, makes for better better pilot training and ultimately will greatly reduce the instances of what is really one of the most preventable of all accidents.

My point exactly. Airmanship is learned over time with experience and hopefully some mentorship - which is sorely lacking in our industry these days.

Serious multi-tasking going on at the moment.... didn't have time to expand, thanks.

stl

[Cat Driver]

Airmanship is learned over time with experience and hopefully some mentorship -

Without good mentorship the learning curve can get way off track.

My first introduction to " airmanship " was reading From the Ground up and in the introduction there were two types of pilots described. Captain Wise and Flatspin Fumble.

Right from the start my goal was to be Captain Wise.

My mentorship started with my first job and he was an old crop duster who never came close to taking any formal courses on teaching flying, he was just a born natural and a true Bearcat on the importance of good airmanship. There were 25 of us who started the course to become crop duster pilots.....I worked like a bastard and listened to every word my teacher said and at the end of the course of 25 hours of flying and countless hours of mentoring and ground school I was one of three who finished and were hired.

I vowed someday to be a good mentor and hopefully I was.

[mabcan]

As medi-whacked, I am kind of surprised by the way propellers are bent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR-uyJ1kYeQ

[Doc]

Airmanship, seamanship and sportsmanship. All encompass good manners, common sense and knowledge, all wrapped up in a neat, tidy package. One does not exist, without the presence of all three of these qualities. It really is that simple.
The most common missing ingredient of course, is common sense. Most in this game, have the knowledge. Some have the manners. Few have the common sense.
Can airmanship, seamanship and sportsmanship be taught? I'd have to say..no. They come from within. Oh, you can teach a monkey to fly. Or sail, for that matter. You might be able to instill some manners. Common sense, however cannot be taught. Some have it. Some don't.

[yycflyguy]

I thought "the Doc" was done with this thread.

[Doc]

I thought "the Doc" was done with this thread.

Case in point. Thanks SO much for providing an example of yourself. Knowledge? Perhaps. Common sense? Jury is still out on this one. Manners? A big FAIL by yycflyguy on the manners.
Said I was out of the topic...not the thread. Where in my post do you see anything relating to landing gear? The discussion is on Airmanship.

[Dust Devil]

I thought "the Doc" was done with this thread.

Case in point. Thanks SO much for providing an example of yourself. Knowledge? Perhaps. Common sense? Jury is still out on this one. Manners? A big FAIL by yycflyguy on the manners.
Said I was out of the topic...not the thread. Where in my post do you see anything relating to landing gear? The discussion is on Airmanship.

An AC employee lacking manners? Say it isn't so!

[Cat Driver]

No wonder so many people are hooked on reading Avcanada where else could you find this quality of entertainment for free?

An AC employee lacking manners? Say it isn't so!

Now, now D.D. that is only going to fan the flames.

[yycflyguy]

I thought "the Doc" was done with this thread.

Case in point. Thanks SO much for providing an example of yourself. Knowledge? Perhaps. Common sense? Jury is still out on this one. Manners? A big FAIL by yycflyguy on the manners.
Said I was out of the topic...not the thread. Where in my post do you see anything relating to landing gear? The discussion is on Airmanship.

Tis to laugh hearing lessons on manners by the guy that rants about "idiots" and "morons" wagering pools on accidents.

Doc's awesome.

[AuxBatOn]

Airmanship is all good, but sometimes, someone's bucket becomes full and things have to drop out. When that happens, you fall back on basic training. This is called "capacity" and it is hard to improve it. Normally, someone comes with it naturally or by the use of good mental organization technique.

I can be all keen and do my "Got the gear, got flaps, time for a beer" or whatever short final check, but if you lack the capacity in certain situations (ie: you become task saturated eighter by your own fault (you are mentally/physically disorganized) or something out of the normal flight happens) and your bucket becomes full, you will drop stuff and fall back on basic training.

I try to do that short final check every time I touch the runway, however in some situations, all my attention is dedicated somewhere else for whatever reason (close traffic, caution that comes on etc) and I miss it. Fortunately, my gear was always in the good position, but it's easy to see how someones (experienced or not) can get caught with his pants down so to speak.

Making the good decision at the right time is the key and it's easy to say and analyse with perspective. But in some circumstances, in the heat of the moment, our decision making becomes clouded by tons of factors and we make mistakes. The important lessons when that happens is not placing the blame, but try to understand what lead to the bad decision and educate pople on how to avoid it.

[Doc]

Doc's awesome.

Starting to get it figured out, at last!

[peterpan8]

This whole Forum could have been summed up with ONE word: CHECKLIST

There is NOTHING else to say or speculate. Period.

Typical AVCan though, always good for a late night laugh, at least

[Cat Driver]

This whole Forum could have been summed up with ONE word: CHECKLIST

There is NOTHING else to say or speculate. Period.

With all due respect you are wrong.

Check lists are necessary for sure but sometimes items get missed due to extenuating circumstances.

That is why a final check of killer items such as where is the gear before I actually land this thing are what will prevent you from landing with the gear in the wrong position.

Rote training and even worse rote thinking with a blind faith in check lists makes for a scary pilot.

Just my opinion, for what ever it is worth.

For me it was worth a lot....that way of checking things saved me from landing gear up twice, once in a two crew airplane having used the check list and once single pilot.

In both cases my final check prevented me from landing gear up....and both times I was to close in to get the gear down so I had to overshoot and go around to lower the gear.

[Doc]

If you rely solely on written checklists, and become distracted in the middle of one, you can very easily come back to it, and miss things. I do a quick "scan" before I'm "over the fence". You guys can at scoff me all you like, nothing works better than a frightened glance at the pretty green "Christmas tree" just before the flair! Nothing.

[Cat Driver]

You guys can at scoff me all you like, nothing works better than a frightened glance at the pretty green "Christmas tree" just before the flair! Nothing.

I had no idea you never had sex Doc.