Looking for suggestions/comments regarding CPL training

[rottentomatoes]

Hello everyone,

I have been undergoing trainings for CPL, I passed the written and I have more than 200 hours including about 65 hours solo. However, I feel that I am not making any progress right now, I have done a fair amount of cross country, and I was told by my instructor to spend time practising air work, and that's all I have been doing, I have not done any instrument work after my night rating, I have not been taught any intrument work required by the flight test either, I haven't had a dual flight where flight test items are reviewed according to the standards. I don't want to sound like an impatient student, but I feel like that I have been wasting my money and time, so last week I finally asked my flight instructor when I could start to learn instrument work (for CPL), and his reaction was: oh, you want to learn those? Ok, then you have to make an one hour's booking with me for ground briefing.

Ok, Isn't he suppose to be the one who guide me through this? It felt like I am pushing him to teach me while he was just there for the rides to get his PIC hours and remuneration. I guess that I am trying to get suggetions and comments from those who have gone through this, how did you progress through your CPL? What can I do to avoid unneccessary delay or setback? And at what point did you learn the additional topics such as instrument work and spin? Or on the other hand, do you think that I am being impatient and unreasonable? I'd appreciate your help and feedback very much.

Thanks and have a great week.

[ywgflyboy]

Some instructors are shitty... You got one of em.

[iflyforpie]

I tailored my CPL training pretty much myself.

I couldn't really afford flight training (and really, who can?), so I was almost fanatical in getting the most bang for my buck.

I had finished my PPL and had a float rating and about 100 hours TT when I started at a new school for my CPL. They told me if I wanted to, I could get my Group 1 IFR as part of my CPL buildup, so...

I went straight into the IFR stuff. This took care of most of the dual requirement plus all the instrument hours. I required 50 hours of PIC cross-country to hold the rating, so I did just about everything I could as a cross-country including most of my night rating. I landed at every airport along the way to practice landings and procedures, so pattern work and cross-country planning took care of itself. Rounding out my training, I did some upper air review and got an instructor to show me how to spin the aircraft--because the instructors that did my PPL could only spiral the plane. All of that was done within 200 hours TT.

Unless you are in a college program, it isn't up to the instructor to baby sit you. Instructors have several students to worry about and can't always be aware of what you need just by looking at a PTR. You can read the requirements, you can do the practice! Ask your instructor for guidance if you are unclear about anything and go up for dual if you need some more polish.

Good luck!

[pilotincommand]

i had the same problem about 3 months ago, then i moved to a different school and my group 1 IFR ride is tomorow, and my commercial ride is later this week. everything progressed FAST, within 2.5- 3 months i went from ppl to MIFR CPL. the instructors got 7000plus hours so he doesnt need time. check out huron flight center in Sarnia. from my experience i highly recommend them.

[Bede]

Get another instructor. I don't know of anyone who takes more than 200hrs to do a CPL. You should be done the instrument stuff aroun 100-150 hrs, done the flight test at 150hrs and building your time doing decent cross countries. Your instructor is milking you.

[5x5]

rottentomatoes, from what you describe it sounds like you aren't being given the best of instruction. Hard to say for sure as there are always two sides to every story, so I don't want to jump to the conclusion that you are purposely being bilked for hours or money by the instructor. Could be other issues at the school besides your specific instructor. But regardless of the reason, you should be getting better service. Try talking with the CFI to get things back on track. If you don't get satisfaction, seriously consider somewhere else for ME/IFR.

Unless you are in a college program, it isn't up to the instructor to baby sit you.

I absolutely disagree on this. That is exactly what an instructor is supposed to do, although rather than call it baby-sitting I would call it guiding and directing. If the school is any good at all there should be a well developed syllabus designed to get the training done effectively and the instructor is required to tailor it to the individual student. And the instructor should be monitored by the CFI to insure this is happening for every student.

[Shiny Side Up]

IF a pilot has started right from the start with the intent to get a commercial licence then such a pilot should have his commercial licence the moment they turn the clock over on their two hundredth hour. That being said with our opening poster we don't have enough information to assess where you're really standing at with your instruction.

First, is your 65 hours solo, sixty five hours past your private licence or including it? How many hours did you take to do your private licence? Have you completed your 300 Nautical cross country? Are you using the school's airplane or your own? Have you made clear to your instructor that you want to work on your commercial?

The last question is particularly important, I've run into it a lot with pilots who own their own aircraft, but occasionally from renters. Get informed to a syllabus and a timeline before you start working on your commercial. It doesn't seem like you've done this, especially since you're at 200 hours and wondering what you should be doing. No offense, but you should have asked this question about One hundred and fifty-five hours ago. Too many prospective CPL students are too fixated with the "two hundred hours to get my commercial licence" than they are on the steps and requirements to get there.

Now that all being said it does sound like you've had a lame duck instructor, but in the end the main one responsible for your education is you.

With that also in mind your example hits right on the head the current problem with training working pilots in Canada.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Now that all being said it does sound like you've had a lame duck instructor, but in the end the main one responsible for your education is you.
.

+ 1

[rottentomatoes]

Hi Everyone, thanks a lot for your comments. It is true that I should have planned my own training more carefully upon finishing PPL. I had around 30 hours' solo at the time, so I thought my priority would be doing solo X/C. I thought about incorporating ME/IFR into CPL, and talked to my instructor about it, which he didn't recommend as he worried that I would become overwhelmed by the process (he also explained that IFR is a completely different form of flying). Another reason is that it cost too much to do ME/IFR at my current school, so there, SSU, if I have my own plane, I probably wouldn't be stressed out now.

I am aware of the requirements for CPL, read them before I started the training, I am at the point where I am working towards getting the recommendation letter for the flight test, so it worried me that the person who will sign the letter doesn't seem to care or even know what has been going on with my training (i.e. confused look when I asked "what about my instrument work"). I am not asking for babysitting, just want more guidance/help to finish this thing. And I am especially concerned with instrument, since I actually need my instructor there for it, and I have had very few hours.

Again, thanks for your help!

[rottentomatoes]

PS. Maybe a dump question, some of you mentioned syllabus and timeline, do you mean that I should have created those on my own, for my own purpose, or I should ask for them from the school? Because they don't have either. But I did read the flight test guide and knew the requirements.

[Big Pistons Forever]

PS. Maybe a dump question, some of you mentioned syllabus and timeline, do you mean that I should have created those on my own, for my own purpose, or I should ask for them from the school? Because they don't have either. But I did read the flight test guide and knew the requirements.

Sigh.............

[ywgflyboy]

PS. Maybe a dump question, some of you mentioned syllabus and timeline, do you mean that I should have created those on my own, for my own purpose, or I should ask for them from the school? Because they don't have either. But I did read the flight test guide and knew the requirements.

Sigh.............

TC is handing out op certificates for schools, and instructor ratings to the dumbest again.... yay.

[Big Pistons Forever]

PS. Maybe a dump question, some of you mentioned syllabus and timeline, do you mean that I should have created those on my own, for my own purpose, or I should ask for them from the school? Because they don't have either. But I did read the flight test guide and knew the requirements.

Sigh.............

TC is handing out op certificates for schools, and instructor ratings to the dumbest again.... yay.

So what have you personally done to improve aviation instruction ?

[Cat Driver]

To really be effective in improving flight instruction you should first own a FTU OC.

However if TC denies you the FTU OC then the next best thing is start up a training business outside of TC's mandate.

Which is what I am planning on doing.

[Shiny Side Up]

Hi Everyone, thanks a lot for your comments. It is true that I should have planned my own training more carefully upon finishing PPL. I had around 30 hours' solo at the time, so I thought my priority would be doing solo X/C. I thought about incorporating ME/IFR into CPL, and talked to my instructor about it, which he didn't recommend as he worried that I would become overwhelmed by the process (he also explained that IFR is a completely different form of flying).

I don't know about you, but I would have taken the bit about me being overwhelmed a bit insulting. Regardless, he snowed you. Doing the multi IFR during the commercial makes the expense of the total commercial more, but saves on the long run over doing the commercial then the multi IFR. IFR flying is a direct skill that can directly apply to your commercial training. Why do you think Private Pilots can learn an IFR? The bit about different "form" of flying is complete bullshit.

I am aware of the requirements for CPL, read them before I started the training, I am at the point where I am working towards getting the recommendation letter for the flight test, so it worried me that the person who will sign the letter doesn't seem to care or even know what has been going on with my training (i.e. confused look when I asked "what about my instrument work"). I am not asking for babysitting, just want more guidance/help to finish this thing. And I am especially concerned with instrument, since I actually need my instructor there for it, and I have had very few hours.

First, take the issue to the Chief Flight Instructor. Get the issue resolved and get a schedule/syllabus/timeline of how your training should run until the point of completion. If he cannot satisfy you, then change schools. I would probably reccomend changing instructors at the very least. Do this before you fly another hour.

PS. Maybe a dump question, some of you mentioned syllabus and timeline, do you mean that I should have created those on my own, for my own purpose, or I should ask for them from the school? Because they don't have either. But I did read the flight test guide and knew the requirements.

No, your school should have outlined this from the very start. Both you and your instructor should be working together to monitor your progress. Unfortunately the current form of Commercial training leaves a lot of leeway here - how you were dissuaded from doing your IFR as a portion of your training is one. The school must have a TC approved syllabus for their training. Reading through the requirements and the FTG simply isn't enough to take a stab at completing it. Not going to be just critical of you, but people need to treat their commercial training like its any other education. If you took a college course, a symester in University, a trade you'd be asking for a syllabus of what to expect. You're there to learn, not just put in time.

[Bede]

Now that all being said it does sound like you've had a lame duck instructor, but in the end the main one responsible for your education is you.

That may be true, but most CPL students don't know anything about the industry to make an informed choice. That is why schools and instructors must be ethical in the way they deal with students.

When I started my CPL at 50 hr, the airlines were just about to have a big hiring boom and I was supposed to be making $100K within 3 years after finishing. I believed every word, just because I didn't know better.

[5x5]

When I started my CPL at 50 hr, the airlines were just about to have a big hiring boom and I was supposed to be making $100K within 3 years after finishing. I believed every word, just because I didn't know better.

Man. I get soooo tired of everybody inferring if not outright saying that "all the flight schools" blow this kind of smoke up your butt. We always make it very clear that embarking on becoming a professional pilot is a very hard row to hoe and so does any reputable school out there.

Why were you doing your training at a disreputable school?

[Shiny Side Up]

That may be true, but most CPL students don't know anything about the industry to make an informed choice. That is why schools and instructors must be ethical in the way they deal with students.

It is true schools have a responsibility to act in an ethical manner which indeed doesn't seem to be followed by the school here and particularly not by the instructor. That being said, its the student's job to find out as much as possible before starting, and be on the ball when they do. These kids got through school didn't they? They got a syllabus at the beginning of each of their symesters then right? They've already had experience deciding on taking options. At least they should. Ultimately I'd like to spread a lot of blame to our education system which seems to poorly prepare people for anything but writing essays in university.

When I started my CPL at 50 hr, the airlines were just about to have a big hiring boom and I was supposed to be making $100K within 3 years after finishing. I believed every word, just because I didn't know better.

There's a guy on TV who tells me if I buy his glorified food chopper its going to make me eat healthy and lose weight. As of yet I haven't ordered one. Never take the word of the seller of a product how great their product is. Sometimes it can be pretty convincing if its what you want to hear.

[shitdisturber]

[quote="Shiny Side UpThere's a guy on TV who tells me if I buy his glorified food chopper its going to make me eat healthy and lose weight. As of yet I haven't ordered one. Never take the word of the seller of a product how great their product is. Sometimes it can be pretty convincing if its what you want to hear.[/quote]

Was that a shamwow I saw in your truck?

[Bede]

When I started my CPL at 50 hr, the airlines were just about to have a big hiring boom and I was supposed to be making $100K within 3 years after finishing. I believed every word, just because I didn't know better.

Man. I get soooo tired of everybody inferring if not outright saying that "all the flight schools" blow this kind of smoke up your butt. We always make it very clear that embarking on becoming a professional pilot is a very hard row to hoe and so does any reputable school out there.

Why were you doing your training at a disreputable school?

That's because you have ethics, as did I when I instructed full time, but a lot of schools don't. I was doning my training at a school like that because they had shiny new airplanes, and the guy talked a good talk, and I was 18 and didn't know any better.

[ywgflyboy]

So what have you personally done to improve aviation instruction ?

None and I do not intend to. I learned a long time ago to not interfere with the way things run (especially at a government level).

There seems to be little enforcement towards flight schools and instructors. Some of them do not know their stuff or care for that matter. I had to do my 300mile x-country twice for my CPL because the route they "suggested" take did not complete all the requirements. I came to the school CAR's in hand and said LOOK. But no no. All the students do this route and TC will never know anyways. Went of on the route. Then found out it did not count because.... you guessed it. 292miles is not 300.

Flights schools are a business and they succeeded in making a quick extra buck off me, and a few others in the same boat.

I would love to instruct. My current job involves a high amount of instruction. But because there are 10 others in front of me waiting to get on instructing, most of which are only doing it to get hours, and because they think it is slave work to work on a ramp.

Sound like something someone like myself can fix? Or even care about? I'm done. But I will not hesitate to tell people when they are wasting their money (or the banks) and getting raped at the same time.

[KAG]

Rotten
One of the things I did when a student came to me who was full time and had the money in place, was do a dual flight every two weeks or so during their time building phase. I would basically do a recommend flight with them to keep them flight test ready and prevent any bad habits from forming. I found when it came time for the actual CPL recommend they were already ready and it saves money. I taught them their commercial instrument skills back in their PPL/night rating, and would get them as proficient at the required skills while keeping as much left over instrument time towards their IFR ticket.

I was milked as a student, so I know how it feels to spin your tires with an instructor who is only filling their log book. Get a new instructor, if this one is not living up to your expectations.

[toelessjoe]

So what have you personally done to improve aviation instruction ?

None and I do not intend to. I learned a long time ago to not interfere with the way things run (especially at a government level).

There seems to be little enforcement towards flight schools and instructors. Some of them do not know their stuff or care for that matter. I had to do my 300mile x-country twice for my CPL because the route they "suggested" take did not complete all the requirements. I came to the school CAR's in hand and said LOOK. But no no. All the students do this route and TC will never know anyways. Went of on the route. Then found out it did not count because.... you guessed it. 292miles is not 300.

Flights schools are a business and they succeeded in making a quick extra buck off me, and a few others in the same boat.

I would love to instruct. My current job involves a high amount of instruction. But because there are 10 others in front of me waiting to get on instructing, most of which are only doing it to get hours, and because they think it is slave work to work on a ramp.

Sound like something someone like myself can fix? Or even care about? I'm done. But I will not hesitate to tell people when they are wasting their money (or the banks) and getting raped at the same time.

Didn't I order you up to Yelloknife on a different thread? Now I'm getting in my car!
Sincerely

AVCANADA's first Official Stalker

[ywgflyboy]

So what have you personally done to improve aviation instruction ?

None and I do not intend to. I learned a long time ago to not interfere with the way things run (especially at a government level).

There seems to be little enforcement towards flight schools and instructors. Some of them do not know their stuff or care for that matter. I had to do my 300mile x-country twice for my CPL because the route they "suggested" take did not complete all the requirements. I came to the school CAR's in hand and said LOOK. But no no. All the students do this route and TC will never know anyways. Went of on the route. Then found out it did not count because.... you guessed it. 292miles is not 300.

Flights schools are a business and they succeeded in making a quick extra buck off me, and a few others in the same boat.

I would love to instruct. My current job involves a high amount of instruction. But because there are 10 others in front of me waiting to get on instructing, most of which are only doing it to get hours, and because they think it is slave work to work on a ramp.

Sound like something someone like myself can fix? Or even care about? I'm done. But I will not hesitate to tell people when they are wasting their money (or the banks) and getting raped at the same time.

Didn't I order you up to Yelloknife on a different thread? Now I'm getting in my car!
Sincerely

AVCANADA's first Official Stalker

I am sitting on a very tall fence.. Afraid to fall off on either side.

[toelessjoe]

Go to the guy/gal running the school. Tell him your situation & subtly let him/her know you are thinking of taking your business elsewhere, since you feel the cirriculum put forth (none) isn't in your best finacial interest (being hosed). Should he/she want to know why (he will) let him know what's going on. The conversation should go something like this;

you: " Mr/Mrs xxx, could I bother you for a moment of your time?"
them: "Certainly. Anything for a student here at Dewey, Screwem, & Howe School of Aviation"
you: "Would you please buy me dinner, maybe some flowers?'
them "Ummm....why?"
you "BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO F*&K ME I AT LEAST TAKE ME TO DINNER & BUY ME SOME F*&KING FLOWERS!!"

Then take your PTR and RUN, don't walk, to a better school.

Of course, if there is something else going on that I am unaware of, then by all means take this advice with a grain of salt. Bitter, overpriced, milking you for money/flighttime salt.