Ice Pilots of NWT Series on History Channel this Fall!

[C-GPFG]

I presume the gear up is a result if a mechanical problem and not pilot error, hence the greaser on the belly.

Great show.

[flyinthebug]

I presume the gear up is a result if a mechanical problem and not pilot error, hence the greaser on the belly.

Great show.

Thats what I thought at first...but I believe the CADORs states they initiated a go around?

*Edit* For CADOR`s C&P

Aircraft InformationFlight #:

Aircraft Category: Aeroplane
Country of Registration: CANADA

Make: CANADAIR
Model: CL215 1A10

Year Built: 1971
Amateur Built: No

Engine Make: PRATT & WHITNEY-USA
Engine Model: R-2800-CA3

Engine Type: Reciprocating
Gear Type: Amphibian

Phase of Flight: Landing
Damage: Substantial

Owner: BUFFALO AIRWAYS LTD
Operator: BUFFALO AIRWAYS LTD. (5319)

Operator Type: Commercial


Event InformationCollision with terrain
Unintentional gear up landing

Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod

Date: 2009-04-23

Further Action Required: No

O.P.I.: System Safety

Narrative: The Buffalo Airways amphibious CL-215, Canadian registration C-FTXB, was being used for pilot training at Izmir, Turkey. During a landing at the airport, the landing gear was not selected down and the aircraft’s centre keel made contact with the runway before the landing was aborted and a go around was successfully carried out. The aircraft returned to the airport and landed uneventfully with the landing gear down and locked. A post-occurrence inspection revealed slice-through damage to the center keel beam consistent with ground contact. The damage on the center keel starts approximately 3-4 feet forward of the water drop doors and widens in the aft direction (in a tapered shape) to approximately 10 inches from each side of the keel. There was damage to the ribs and structural members inside the hull

[Doc]

I presume the gear up is a result if a mechanical problem and not pilot error, hence the greaser on the belly.

Great show.

Lets see if I have this straight. Do you actually think, that if the guys KNEW the gear was up, they would have landed a "flying boat" on a runway???? Nice thought process. Give it a thought....flying BOAT?

[Kilo-Kilo]

Oh Doc! That's priceless!

Tears in my eyes!

[kiloindiapapa]

Just checking out episode one on you tube. What ever happened to that Alex Wagner on that episode. He was suppossed to have 5000 hours and we have not seen him again. Didnt make it up there? And whats with that Kelly Jurasevich, shes only been there a year in those episodes and she talks like shes been there for ever.

[canwhitewolf]

she works hard, its a hard job and based on that maybe she does feel like shes been there forever

[kiloindiapapa]

Her comments about the guy from India were a little harsh when he left. She mentioned one show that she wants to go back south so who is she to talk bad about him leaving. And he did not even want to go, It was a family/personal thing and nothing to do with being at Buffalo.

Im sure most of the comments and such are edited to make things better for the show so who really knows what the deal is.

[howard40]

any photos anywhere of the crunched DC4 with its broken wings? etc
thanks

[C-GPFG]

I presume the gear up is a result if a mechanical problem and not pilot error, hence the greaser on the belly.

Great show.

Thats what I thought at first...but I believe the CADORs states they initiated a go around?

Didn't think there'd be a CADOR on it since it may have been re-registered under the Turkish authority by that point. Sucks to read it was unintentional.

And to Doc...the CL-215 is a flying boat? Meaning it can land on water? Amazing technology. Who knew? But thanks for jumping on that, Kilo-Kilo as well, or else I would never have pieced that together.

Thought process: Give the Buffalo instructor the benefit of the doubt and presume it was mechanical, not error. I'm no 215 expert, but I'd imagine it has gear up warnings and the hull is built stronger than a land aircraft. Plus having the engines mounted on high-wings, it would be easier to belly land it (on grass would obviously be better, so that raised other questions), jack it up, fix the gear and buff out the scratches. I don't have much knowledge on how hard it is to pull something that size out of the water, ramp or no ramp, or whether a gear problem could be fixed while it was in the water. Is that really that far-fetched of a theory for a mechanical problem before I knew of the CADOR?

[HS-748 2A]

Thought process: Give the Buffalo instructor the benefit of the doubt and presume it was mechanical, not error. I'm no 215 expert, but I'd imagine it has gear up warnings and the hull is built stronger than a land aircraft. Plus having the engines mounted on high-wings, it would be easier to belly land it (on grass would obviously be better, so that raised other questions), jack it up, fix the gear and buff out the scratches. I don't have much knowledge on how hard it is to pull something that size out of the water, ramp or no ramp, or whether a gear problem could be fixed while it was in the water. Is that really that far-fetched of a theory for a mechanical problem before I knew of the CADOR?

Given the benefit of knowing before-hand that you can't get your wheels down, you'd definately land that thing in the nearest big body of water. No matter how you landed it in the dirt, there'd be more than a little 'buffing' to do. Getting the gear down and locked with the airplane beached or nosed up to a dock would be by far comparatively easy. Not everybody's cut out for PDM though.

[C-GPFG]

Given the benefit of knowing before-hand that you can't get your wheels down, you'd definately land that thing in the nearest big body of water. No matter how you landed it in the dirt, there'd be more than a little 'buffing' to do. Getting the gear down and locked with the airplane beached or nosed up to a dock would be by far comparatively easy. Not everybody's cut out for PDM though.

Makes sense.

What would you guys do in the event you get a gear unsafe warning..gear appears to be up, is not coming down, and won't lock back up? I thought this could be a possibility with the 215 in the next episode (before I read the CADOR).

[North Shore]

will add my $.02 later...

[gabo]

For the record, here is what happened:
-Arnie WAS NOT FLYING, it was one of the two hired guns, forget which one
-The gear was working perfectly fine, there were no false indications, no malfunctions (Other than the people at the controls of the plane).
-Simply put, they FORGOT THE GEAR

[FlyingFinn]

I presume the gear up is a result if a mechanical problem and not pilot error, hence the greaser on the belly.

Great show.

Thought process: Give the Buffalo instructor the benefit of the doubt and presume it was mechanical, not error. I'm no 215 expert, but I'd imagine it has gear up warnings and the hull is built stronger than a land aircraft. Plus having the engines mounted on high-wings, it would be easier to belly land it (on grass would obviously be better, so that raised other questions), jack it up, fix the gear and buff out the scratches. I don't have much knowledge on how hard it is to pull something that size out of the water, ramp or no ramp, or whether a gear problem could be fixed while it was in the water. Is that really that far-fetched of a theory for a mechanical problem before I knew of the CADOR?

Who would of thoughts monkeys can fly yet not have enough brain power to realize Docs comment about the flying BOAT!
If it was a mechanical problem, my first thought would be "let's not f*** up a $7million dollar airplane and the save everyone the heartache and just land on a LAKE where maintenance can check it out!
Regardless of high wing/engines, the aiplane isn't going to balance on it's keel with a grass or pavement landing! It's gonna topple to one side or the other and take out some lights and more! Think it over!!

[Kilo-Kilo]

You have to wonder if they blew the profit margin on that job or not.

Tough to imagine trying to make a deal to get through troubled economic times and have to suffer events that the best laid out contingency plan wouldn't foresee.

[C-GPFG]

Who would of thoughts monkeys can fly yet not have enough brain power to realize Docs comment about the flying BOAT!
If it was a mechanical problem, my first thought would be "let's not f*** up a $7million dollar airplane and the save everyone the heartache and just land on a LAKE where maintenance can check it out!
Regardless of high wing/engines, the aiplane isn't going to balance on it's keel with a grass or pavement landing! It's gonna topple to one side or the other and take out some lights and more! Think it over!!

Wow, this is really getting some people worked up. I'm well aware it's a flying boat and yes, of course I've thought it over. I'm trying to determine a reason for landing an amphib wheels up OTHER THAN ERROR. The CADOR obviously spoiled it for me.

The only reason I could think of for intentionally landing at the airport wheels up, like in the scenario I asked a couple posts up, was if they were getting an unsafe warning/wheels weren't locked up. My decision would be to land on ground if I couldn't guarantee the wheels would stay up for the water landing. As for toppling over, perhaps the tip floats would help reduce the severity of that? I don't know how strong those things are..so I'm just throwing that idea out there and realize they may simply break off the second they touch the grass.

I DON'T have a seaplane rating. I'm fully aware that may be the wrong decision. I am open to be educated as to what the better decision would be in that scenario....

[Kilo-Kilo]

Not to beat this one to death, but don't they have the manual hand crank as at least one of the steps for a gear malfunction?

[denkauto]

We can only say one thing with absolute certainty.

Doc would have put the gear down

And then probably would have had sex with your wife/GF.

[Brewhouse]

No manual hand crank in the 215, just an emergancy/auxiliary hydraulic system to lower gear.

There is a aural gear warning system that has two settings, land or sea with panel lights associated. If this switch was in the sea possition (which is used during water work) the gear horn would not sound in the aformentioned situation. It is also possible to mute the aural warning system.

With the gear up and locked I don't believe anyone would knowingly land on a hard surface unless, the waterdoors were open, and the emerg. water door close function failed.

[co-joe]

...ACTUALLY, from what I've seen in this business, with something like that on his resume, he'll be at Air Canada in the next round of hiring, first groundschool!

Care to elaborate?

I'm surprised you haven't heard. The reason AC asks if you've had any incidents or accidents is that they consistently hire people who have. Maybe statistically you only do it once a lifetime (assuming you live through it).

If you haven't had an interview yet, maybe try a gear up, or a runway incursion. Once they spool up the hiring thing in Q2 2011 or so...

[Jaques Strappe]

Thought process: Give the Buffalo instructor the benefit of the doubt and presume it was mechanical, not error. I'm no 215 expert, but I'd imagine it has gear up warnings and the hull is built stronger than a land aircraft. Plus having the engines mounted on high-wings, it would be easier to belly land it (on grass would obviously be better, so that raised other questions), jack it up, fix the gear and buff out the scratches. I don't have much knowledge on how hard it is to pull something that size out of the water, ramp or no ramp, or whether a gear problem could be fixed while it was in the water. Is that really that far-fetched of a theory for a mechanical problem before I knew of the CADOR?

Given the benefit of knowing before-hand that you can't get your wheels down, you'd definately land that thing in the nearest big body of water. No matter how you landed it in the dirt, there'd be more than a little 'buffing' to do. Getting the gear down and locked with the airplane beached or nosed up to a dock would be by far comparatively easy. Not everybody's cut out for PDM though.

You guys crack me up. Landing on water in the event of a gear problem requires a few assumptions. First you need a body of water large enough to get back out of and one that has an acceptable sea state to land in. Second, you need the fuel to get you to that body of water, assuming you know where it is and have the fuel to get there.

The fact that none of us on this forum were actually there or had any of the facts until someone posted the Cador, gives us no real basis to jump all over C-GPFG for posting a legitimate question. Do you really think that this would have been the first intentional beaching of an amphibious aircraft if there had been a gear problem? Give your head a shake.

[Jaques Strappe]

...ACTUALLY, from what I've seen in this business, with something like that on his resume, he'll be at Air Canada in the next round of hiring, first groundschool!

Care to elaborate?

I'm surprised you haven't heard. The reason AC asks if you've had any incidents or accidents is that they consistently hire people who have. Maybe statistically you only do it once a lifetime (assuming you live through it).

If you haven't had an interview yet, maybe try a gear up, or a runway incursion. Once they spool up the hiring thing in Q2 2011 or so...

Hey Co-Joe Why don't you go take some of your own advice and crash an airplane somewhere. Then when you get hired at Air Canada, feel free to give me an " I told ya so"

[allblueskies]

Kiloindiapapa-Actually Alex Wagner has been shown quite a bit in other episodes, even if they don't keep mentioning his name. He did take a bit of time off in the spring I believe and came back for summer contract so there would be a bit of a gap there without him in it. I'm sure he will be back in season 2.

[Slats]

You guys crack me up. Landing on water in the event of a gear problem requires a few assumptions. First you need a body of water large enough to get back out of and one that has an acceptable sea state to land in. Second, you need the fuel to get you to that body of water, assuming you know where it is and have the fuel to get there.

The fact that none of us on this forum were actually there or had any of the facts until someone posted the Cador, gives us no real basis to jump all over C-GPFG for posting a legitimate question. Do you really think that this would have been the first intentional beaching of an amphibious aircraft if there had been a gear problem? Give your head a shake.

A quick check of Google maps shows the airport maybe 15 miles or so from the water, including what looks to be a large sheltered harbour. Even if that had not been a prudent option at the time, I would think that in a flying boat a gear up landing on land due to mechanical failure would be better accomplished landing on the grass next to the runway somewhere. I have no experience in flying boats but floatplanes can be landed safely and without any damage in such a way and I would imagine the same would hold largely true for something like the 215, with minor considerations for some things which someone else has already pointed out. Would also likely prevent an extended runway closure.

[iflyforpie]

You guys crack me up. Landing on water in the event of a gear problem requires a few assumptions. First you need a body of water large enough to get back out of and one that has an acceptable sea state to land in. Second, you need the fuel to get you to that body of water, assuming you know where it is and have the fuel to get there.

The fact that none of us on this forum were actually there or had any of the facts until someone posted the Cador, gives us no real basis to jump all over C-GPFG for posting a legitimate question. Do you really think that this would have been the first intentional beaching of an amphibious aircraft if there had been a gear problem? Give your head a shake.

Considerations huh? I wonder how on earth they actually do any firefighting with these aircraft given so many considerations? I think a bigger consideration for landing on the water with gear problems would be positive indication that the gear is up and locked.

I think this one was a whoopsie...