Buying an Aircraft beyond one's capability

[Dagwood]

So, I was browsing the Aircraft for Sale Forum, and came across a wanted add for a light twin. Now I don't know the poster, except what he's posted on here before. I don't know if he's buying if for himself, or looking for someone else, so take this with a grain of salt. I wish him well buying an aircraft (I wish I could do that!).

Please realize that because a licence says MIFR, one can easily get over his head, if he goes blasting off into IMC with known icing. When the previous posts indicate being uncomfortable in IMC, or just getting nervous when flying, please consider finding a good buddy to go flying with until you are comfortable doing it yourself. SPMIFR has been discussed here before, and the dangers of doing it. There is a reason why single pilot PPCs are rare. When you're by yourself, it's all up to you.

Fly safe.


End of rant.

[Cat Driver]

AMEN.

[Kilo-Kilo]

That's very good advice. It would appear the driving factor for his purchase is to maintain currency requirements/build time without breaking the bank on rentals.

This brings up a question. Is there another alternative for a fresh muti/IFR pilot to build time and experience without doing on the job? The point being, if it is not recommended on his own then what makes paying clients persons or property in the back preferable. The argument could be made that we are only talking about one particular person based on his previous posts here, but surely he is not the only fresh multi/IFR in Canada with these feelings.

[iflyforpie]

I've got this friend who is a pretty successful business owner, and he has been drooling over this 414 that has been for sale for a couple years now. He keeps on seeking my advice on whether to buy it or not. Every time he mentions it, I say 'run'.

He finally finished his PPL (yes, PPL) and is currently working through his night rating and asked me about it again. Again I told him that:

1) The plane is cheap to buy (relatively) but expensive to operate (Spar AD, insurance, fuel, maintenance, etc).
2) This particular plane has all the makings of a basket-case (rebuild, from out of country).
3) You have none of the ratings or experience to fly this plane.
4) Out here in the rocks, even with the right training and experience, this plane will get you into a whole pile more trouble than it will get you out of.

Finally he asked me what a good price was for a 150...

Now we're talking!

[kiloindiapapa]

Buying a plane that is way past ones capability is one thing. What I hate to see is people buy a plane that is way out of their ability to afford it. Time and time again i see posts about buying a plane and how much it costs. Sure a faster, bigger plane is great but it is going to cost alot to maintain ,to put fuel in, for annuals and to insure and many people are turned off by this and some end up just quiting aviation all together.

Its hard to get a plane that will do it all and still burn fuel at an affordable rate. Planes like older 172s, 150's cherokees ect are smaller and cheap to operate and annuals usually are affordable. I hate to see people not enjoy flying cause they are strung out financially or they wont fly cause it might put hours on an engine that will cost zillions to overhaul or fix. Also when the planes get too big its not so much fun for most general aviation folks as the feeling of flight is lost due to workload and demands inside the cockpit.

[Doc]

One of my students, many moons ago, bought himself a Viking! He hadn't even finished his PPL! Don't know how many of you have had the fun of flying a Viking....but, that was one long checkout!
Beware the cheap airplane. You can get a Beech Duke cheap....and pay the purchase price all over again on the first annual inspection.
A Lear 20 series can be had for a relative "song". But, not a happy song.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Light twins have become almost unsellable because they are so expensive to maintain. The example I give everyone is the Baron 58. Early 1970's examples are going for as low as 60,000 USD. But a new one cost $980,000 USD. When you go to order parts from beechcraft they are priced for the million dollar aircraft not the 60,000 dollar one. In addition insurance can be unobtainable at any price for low time pilots. Flying schools will generally not rent twins solo for this reason

Secondly allmost all of the "cheap twins" have been run into the ground with all the expensive maintainance items defered. The owner is selling because it is now time to pay the piper (no pun intended) and he/she is trying to unload his troubles on an unsuspecting sucker.

I hope the motivation for buiding twin time is not to buy a job.....

.

[piston]

This is one of the reasons I am building my own aircraft. A Viking Dragonfly MkII.

Not too too expensive to build and it is owner maintenance. Mind you, I was an airframe tech in the airforce so I have the necessary skills to do the maintenance.

Also, it is cheap to run...15 gallons of fuel for approx 550 nm.

I have been informed however they are not the easiest aircraft to fly. I plan on getting an experienced Dragonfly pilot to fly with me until I am 100% comfortable.

[rampking]

Oh yes by! Try to make it out like its flying the space shuttle why don't ya! Jesus I can't get over how many old men there are on this site that think they are the only ones capable of flying a twin by themselves, You guys are still alive aren't ya???? The dumb guys will always find a way to kill themselves.....

If ya got the money,buy the plane, pay attention and use your head.

king

[Invertago]

Oh yes by! Try to make it out like its flying the space shuttle why don't ya! Jesus I can't get over how many old men there are on this site that think they are the only ones capable of flying a twin by themselves, You guys are still alive aren't ya???? The dumb guys will always find a way to kill themselves.....

If ya got the money,buy the plane, pay attention and use your head.

king

How much are you asking for your twin there rampking? Was the annual a bit expensive on a rampy budget?

[altiplano]

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[200hr Wonder]

Hey when I win the lottery I am going to go with a King Air 350... if you are going to over do it might as well REALLY over do it!

[Strega]

no way,, lear 24 all the way!

[altiplano]

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[Brewhouse]

Oh yes by! Try to make it out like its flying the space shuttle why don't ya! Jesus I can't get over how many old men there are on this site that think they are the only ones capable of flying a twin by themselves, You guys are still alive aren't ya???? The dumb guys will always find a way to kill themselves.....

If ya got the money,buy the plane, pay attention and use your head.

king

Sorry, but I have to agree with rampking on this one. Keep in mind I don't know the guy wanting to buy the twin. Big deal, he wants to buy a twin he may fly five hundred hours VFR with it before he goes IFR, he may hire an instructer for duel IFR training.

Through out my career I've only seen a couple of company's flying piston twins 2 crew in the areas I've worked, and we also fly or flew the twin turbines single pilot for everything except medevac's. The IFR rules are the same single pilot as two crew, and most autopilots can fly better than me and you anyhow.

Go ahead flame away, I just don't think its that big of a deal.

[Dust Devil]

Oh yes by! Try to make it out like its flying the space shuttle why don't ya! Jesus I can't get over how many old men there are on this site that think they are the only ones capable of flying a twin by themselves, You guys are still alive aren't ya???? The dumb guys will always find a way to kill themselves.....

If ya got the money,buy the plane, pay attention and use your head.

king

Sorry, but I have to agree with rampking on this one. Keep in mind I don't know the guy wanting to buy the twin. Big deal, he wants to buy a twin he may fly five hundred hours VFR with it before he goes IFR, he may hire an instructer for duel IFR training.

Through out my career I've only seen a couple of company's flying piston twins 2 crew in the areas I've worked, and we also fly or flew the twin turbines single pilot for everything except medevac's. The IFR rules are the same single pilot as two crew, and most autopilots can fly better than me and you anyhow.

Go ahead flame away, I just don't think its that big of a deal.

I don't think it would be a big deal if guys would remember why they are behind the controls and that is to fly the airplane first and foremost.

Once again back to landing gear. Everyone wants to discuss distractions and reasons why people forget key fundamentals of operating aircraft. I think the number one problem is pilots worrying more about those distractions rather than operating the aircraft itself. If ATC or the boss or the other boss (wifey) is throwing too much at you ya gotta tell em to pound sand. There is lots of sky up there even in the busiest of airspace. Lots of sky means lots of time to properly do the job. Pilots just need to take advantage of it.

That's not just for the guys who belly it in but also the guys who push minimums. The crash in Northern Saskatchewan for example (Sandy Bay was its?). They essentially had no one in "command" and had confusion about who was flying. Perhaps single pilot IFR would have been safer in that situation as one guy would have had sole responsibility for flying the airplane the whole time.

[rampking]

Oh yes by! Try to make it out like its flying the space shuttle why don't ya! Jesus I can't get over how many old men there are on this site that think they are the only ones capable of flying a twin by themselves, You guys are still alive aren't ya???? The dumb guys will always find a way to kill themselves.....

If ya got the money,buy the plane, pay attention and use your head.

king

How much are you asking for your twin there rampking? Was the annual a bit expensive on a rampy budget?

Sorry you must have misunderstood my avatar name, I don't work on a ramp. I enjoy riding MX Bikes. My workplace is quite warm with a comfy left seat. Either way who is to say a ramp worker shouldn't have a point of view on this topic. I happen to know a guy who is working the ramp to get a flying job, his family is worth a mint! I am sure his father could buy him a plane. I started off flying a light twin single pilot, I happen to know loads of guys who did. Maybe if you spent as much time thinking about what you should be doing in the plane rather then worrying about killing yourself you would be able to fly a light twin by yourself as well!

[Hedley]

Food for thought: next time you see an F-18 doing surface
level aerobatics at an airshow, remember that he almost
certainly doesn't have enough flight time to fly left seat
in a clapped-out king air in the civilian world. Hmmmm.

It's alll about the quality of training, which in the civilian
world is generally pretty crappy.

With the right civilian training, you can fly a MiG-21 - which
I might add is probably more dangerous and difficult than
anything currently flying in Canada - and you don't need
60,000 hours in your logbook to do it safely.

You just need the right training.

If you don't believe me, look at the objective reduction in
the fatal accident rates in the MU-2 in the USA in the years
since the FAA regulated additional, quality flight training.

[Nark]

I know there is an SFAR for the MU2. Too lazy to look up specifics.

There is an SFAR for the Robinson helicopters, requiring 20 dual before you can solo it.

SFAR's are FAR's for a specific issue.


Having taught a few people to fly in the last few months I can give you this much insight. Not everyone progresses at the same rate. So not everyone is at "your" level of capability; if it took you 65 hours to get your certificate, doesn't mean everyone should.

Hedley hit the nail on the head. Quality of instruction, student motivation and preparation goes a long way in making a safe pilot.



edited to add:
SFAR Requirements:
The new rule includes the following changes for operators:
• Instructors–must have logged 2,000 hours total, 800 PIC multiengine, 300 PIC MU-2, 50 MU-2 in the past 12 months.
• Designated pilot examiners/check airmen–100 hours in type and meet SFAR training and currency.
• Landing currency–all MU-2 pilots must perform 90-day landings in an MU-2.
• Biennial flight review–all MU-2 pilots must complete in an MU-2.

[iflyforpie]

Oh yes by! Try to make it out like its flying the space shuttle why don't ya! Jesus I can't get over how many old men there are on this site that think they are the only ones capable of flying a twin by themselves, You guys are still alive aren't ya???? The dumb guys will always find a way to kill themselves.....

If ya got the money,buy the plane, pay attention and use your head.

king

Fair enough.

I was bombing around alone in a light twin with around 300 hours TT. But I had about 30 hours dual in the plane previously from two very experienced instructors (Class 1 and Class 2) for my multi and IFR. Even though the plane was loaded with de-ice, wx radar, o2, and all the like I only ever flew it VFR.

It doesn't have to be the Space Shuttle to get you killed though. Even more benign aircraft like a 172 can get you into trouble if you ask too much of it. Like going into a strip that is too short to get out of for example.

Have proper training, and know your limitations...

[GoinNowhereFast]

Food for thought: next time you see an F-18 doing surface
level aerobatics at an airshow, remember that he almost
certainly doesn't have enough flight time to fly left seat
in a clapped-out king air in the civilian world. Hmmmm.

And they do single pilot M-IFR in those too!

[iflyforpie]

Food for thought: next time you see an F-18 doing surface
level aerobatics at an airshow, remember that he almost
certainly doesn't have enough flight time to fly left seat
in a clapped-out king air in the civilian world. Hmmmm.

And they do single pilot M-IFR in those too!

1) The pilots who fly the Hornet aren't your typical pilots with your typical training.
2) The aircraft is virtually un-stallable and has a ton of excess thrust.
3) They aren't carrying passengers.
4) There is an oh-sh!t handle.

I've heard more than a few war stories from former demo pilots about entering the civilian world and flying boring aircraft...

[Dagwood]

There is nothing wrong with buying a light twin and flying it yourself if you're properly licenced. The point I was making, is when someone is uncomfortable in IMC, and nervous when flying, yet is looking for a twin that has known ice certification, I started scratching my head.

You're right, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to fly 2 engines at the same time. A monkey can do it. The problem is that a twin can get you into a lot of trouble much faster when things start to go unexpectedly leaving you far behind the aircraft.

[altiplano]

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[Shiny Side Up]

most autopilots can fly better than me and you anyhow.

If he has a serviceable autopilot. Private single pilot IFR doesn't require one.

In my books one of the scariest ideas around. Fools who envision themselves flying around single pilot IFR on a PPL and think its going to be a breeze to penetrate some shit weather are already putting themselves way behind the aircraft. Unfortunately there's a lot of thiose fools out there who make the wrong choice when time comes for a test of skill when they do have to go through the shit. Many it is luck that saves them.