exceltech finished

[planemikey]

Exceltech bankrupt . Another nail in the coffin of Canadain Aviation Maintenance . Unless things change dracstically The TC boyz will have nothing to over look . Untill airlines stop trying to save money by going overseas to third world quality MRO's and the stop selling $49.00 seats to cutthroat the other ariline nothing will change and you unfortunatly will see lives bing lost in the end .

Aveos has moved to Central America , US airlines have returned to the US of Mexicans .

$50.00 -65.00 hour MRO rates or less to fix a plane that needs to work at 35 k feet VS $115.00 hour for your Candilac to get fixed .

OUR GOVERNMENT IS ALLOWING OUR JOBS TO GO OUT OF COUNTRY . NEW RULE IF YOU FLY EM HERE YOU FIX EM HERE !!

[Pat Richard]

Agreed.

Maybe I will give full time auto mech another look. Don't think they can ship that work cross border, and people are willing to pay.

It's a sad state of affairs, but it's not surprising. Cheap maintenance has always been part of most companies business plans, and it's obvious they will stop at no end to achieve it.

How's that "great future" line sounding now, newbs??

Pattie

[bombardierfixer]

Appliance repair may be the way to go. That kid working on the C-17 engines in the airforce ad's can keep it!

[conehead]

OUR GOVERNMENT IS ALLOWING OUR JOBS TO GO OUT OF COUNTRY . NEW RULE IF YOU FLY EM HERE YOU FIX EM HERE !!

Have you ever poked your head in the Exeltech hangar in YUL? Most of the work carried out by this company was on U.S. aircraft. I believe the death of this company probably had something to do with the high value of the Canadian dollar relative to the American greenback.

[glidepath]

I think all you should know maybe the reason companies are goinf south is cause they do a better job than you here? I work in this industry and the Canadian born workers here really need to step up their game if they want to compete in a world market.

[PJ1]

I think all you should know maybe the reason companies are goinf south is cause they do a better job than you here? I work in this industry and the Canadian born workers here really need to step up their game if they want to compete in a world market.

Thanks for that wonderful piece of verbal diaharea, you reminded me why I got out of aviation.

[billy ray valintine]

I think all you should know maybe the reason companies are goinf south is cause they do a better job than you here? I work in this industry and the Canadian born workers here really need to step up their game if they want to compete in a world market.

glidepath

then why don't you go there and work if you are so much better in aviation than canadians!
why don't you tell us canadians why your so much better.
are you MTCE or a pilot or?? maybe you can teach me how to read and follow the maintenance
manual to your "stepped up level".
where did you get your training?

brv

[planemikey]

Your absolutly full of it glidepath. What is this Canadian born bullshit! Where you are born has nothing to do with how maintenance is done . sounds like a little prejudus to me. The US has pulled out due to protectionism and not wanting to do the work properly IAW . We don't pencil whip here and they don't like it. Corporations are vicious and do not care which flag is on their maintenance release as long as the $$ figure is lower.

[bombardierfixer]

Thats a pretty daming statement to make about US maintenace. I don't see transport sniffing around on a regular basis. Yeah sure they don't have to go to school to get the A&P but to get their IA its six years of constant maintenance. They have to maintain a constant database of AD's ect, that has to be updated yearly. Its far from perfect, sure the majority of Canadian AMEs choose to go into maintenance, where as a typical A&P is ex-military and thats where recruiting put them, chances are they are not even a A&P.

The basic fact is a A&P is lucky to see 20.00hr
The US government is very protectionist and peanalizes companies who out source maintenance
Our dollar is .94
Third party maintenance is the most cut throat part of aviation.

Simple economics in a industry where Joe six-pack flies to europe for under 1000.00 bucks, and 10-20 percent of that is tax!

We aren't going to get anywhere calling other people names.

[billy ray valintine]

Thats a pretty daming statement to make about US maintenace. I don't see transport sniffing around on a regular basis. Yeah sure they don't have to go to school to get the A&P but to get their IA its six years of constant maintenance. They have to maintain a constant database of AD's ect, that has to be updated yearly. Its far from perfect, sure the majority of Canadian AMEs choose to go into maintenance, where as a typical A&P is ex-military and thats where recruiting put them, chances are they are not even a A&P.

The basic fact is a A&P is lucky to see 20.00hr
The US government is very protectionist and peanalizes companies who out source maintenance
Our dollar is .94
Third party maintenance is the most cut throat part of aviation.

Simple economics in a industry where Joe six-pack flies to europe for under 1000.00 bucks, and 10-20 percent of that is tax!

We aren't going to get anywhere calling other people names.

sorry bombardierfixer, i read your post and still don't know what your talking about or where
your going with it. forgive me.
no one is calling anyone names here{that much i understood}.
am i to believe that the reason Canadian carriers are getting heavy maintenance done in
south America is because they are more advanced in their methods and technology than
we are here in Canada,and money has nothing to do with it?
there are companies right here in Canada that do fantastic 'c' checks, but they charge
for that.
if money was not the issue,the work would be done here.
we had an aircraft go to south America for a heavy check and it came back an absolute
toilet and we substandard canadian AME'S had to fix it right!.
just sayin'.......

brv

[Pat Richard]

we had an aircraft go to south America for a heavy check and it came back an absolute
toilet and we substandard canadian AME'S had to fix it right!

I've experienced exactly what BRV is saying personally, three times. I also know of 2 similar experiences. I would just like to know how many times this has to happen before someone in management recognizes they are spending more to send a/c down south. All I've ever heard are excuses being made, for the southern company, by the same jackasses who recommended sending them there.
I've never seen anyone in management defend any Canadian outfit that was doing a check for them, when the the a/c had issues after overhaul.

Quite the opposite.

[bombardierfixer]

BRV no I was responding to plane micky "pencil whip" statement, sorry I should have qualified that statement. That and I think we are getting two threads mixed up. I dunno maybe with Exceltech going into chapter 11 its got everyone a little excited. The conversations getting a little polarized now. This is the problem with us (AMEs) circle the wagons and shoot in.

[bombardierfixer]

After reading my previous post, I don't know what my point was either, other than maybe why we are seeing so much stuff leave.

[planemikey]

I stand by my Pencil whip comment . Go work at a major AMO in the US and really see what goes on , recieve and inspect an aircraft after it has been overhauled there . Get an aircraft in for C-check when the previous c-check and see what was not done or done incorrectly in the US . See major Airlines ( Alaska ) that claim to be able to do a Major C 7 ( old D ) in 19 days ( Physically impossible ) and dangle that in your face and say your incompetant . This is being done in countless countries because it can be and is nessesary to still sell $49.00 seats .

Carriers and the system can not keep this up and only after more bodies wash ashore will the governments and passengers will demand better and actually pay for it instead of pencil whip it .

Yes the bottom line is cost, taxes and oversight . Why do you think most ocean liners and cargo vessels are registered in Panama and Liberia ! Yes we have a higher standard of living in Canada and that hurts us . Yes we have unions and work to rule and still can pick up our pace and can get better . But don't ask me to fix or sign out aircraft repaired or maintained in another country with substandard maintenace and pencilwhipped maintenance management .

[aviator_mech]

i was part of the exeltech shut down.... along with 500 other employees..... basically these are some of the reason why exeltech went down..... we lost american eagle atr's after 20 years to an american rmo for a better price on the bid... bid came up... we lost it... so that was one of the hits..... our delta contract crj -200 pylon mods ran out aiplanes all finished... then they built the new hangar 2 years ago, going into it with only one solid contract and that was air wisconsin.... we lost air wisconsin because avionics left the rigging pin in the rudder for one of the test and the airplane was given its ticket of airworthyness after the c check, airplane goes to fly and the rudder's locked out, pilots declare an emergency landing.... wisconsin pulled out because of that! one year contract with shuttle america on their embraer 170/175's finished and they didn't re-sign... jets-blue sent us a few a 190's for some minor checks, B checks pretty much... they tried hard to get that C check contract but never signed... personally its because i think i had to do with the fact that they always complained about how we have this brand new hangard but its always disorganized, could of been one of the reason's why they pulled out..... also just as we moved into the new hangar Derek Nice the ceo who really built the company in 4 years kinda got stabbed in the back and was bought out, now he's running a company in florida i think not a 100% sure.... basically the company got themselves into huuuuge debt and couldn't find the contracts and wouldn't send their ame's on courses and develop a little bit of aircraft diversity, they just specialized on atr's, crj's and embraer's... good quality work if you ask me, alot of really skilled guys... they just wouldn't send guys out on courses.... there are tons of aircrafts that could of fit in that hangar in yul easily if you ask me..... dc 9's.... 737's , global's, all sorts of biz jets, etc.... bad management if you ask me.... for crying out loud, the entire board of directors of maintenance were all sheet metal guys with no aircraft maintenance experience running the show.... well they have about 10 guys working right now trying to finish a few of the airplanes in the hangar right now and as it stands, they are not completely shut down yet but.... they owe a total of 16 million dollars to workers/corporations/government/bank

[dash8avionic]

I don't know where you got your info but the air wisconsin aircraft never flew with the rig pin and never declared an emergency landing. The pilot notice the problem at the gate during their preflight inspection. When you don't know what you are talking about...just don't say a word

[electraguy]

Yes I am quite curious when we can get some BUY CANADA policys going. We support companys like Air Canada, Bombardier and others with our tax dollars (bail outs) and then they send there work overseas because they can get cheap slave labour? And put qualified Canadians out of work, the very people who pay those taxes! This crap has to stop, the almighty dollar rules unfortunatly in aviation, problem is when the almighty dollar rules quality goes down the crapper and so does saftey. Our regulators need to step in and put a stop to this practice of outsourcing, or the next time one of these "Canadian" companys is in trouble, no government bail out dollars, sink or swim if you love unfedered capatlism so much!

[Popol]

I don't know where you got your info but the air wisconsin aircraft never flew with the rig pin and never declared an emergency landing. The pilot notice the problem at the gate during their preflight inspection. When you don't know what you are talking about...just don't say a word

X2


The aircrfat never flew with the rig pin

[johnkruk]

Are you kidding me glidepath!!!!! ya you are good at what you do, if someone keeps sending heavy checks to third world "english as a second language country" they will get better at doing them. Canada is a terrible place to do heavy mainteance, unions, high wages, human rights etc. all the that doesn't apply to to third world.
Have you ever worked with some of these pro's from these country's............most don't even know how to use the MM, but they have done it all!

[ChallengerDan]

I think the major issue is, even if the quality of the work is comparable (which i don't know wheter it really is or not, but you sure don't hear about south american planes falling from the skies every day, neither do we hear about Brazilian made airplanes getting involved in accidents more than any other airplane) you cannot even come close to compete in terms of price.
Especially with the demise of the US dollar which sure has ruined the revenues of more than one MRO business in Canada.

Exeltch beeing a prime example of this.


Now regarding the rig pin incident, I have talked to 2 different persons somewhat involved with the incident and no, the aircraft was not flown with it. Aircraft had been released from the heavy check and was at the gate. Pilot did flight control checks and noticed somthing weird in the rudder system. Mechanic dispatched to the aircraft could not really notice anything at the time but figured the pilot knew a whole lot more about flight control feel than him and decided to bring aircraft back to the shop. There they found the rigpin.
As far as aircraft function is concerned, it would have performed exactly as it usually does, even with that rig pin installed. The system is designed to operate with a cable jam on one side, which is exactly what that rigpin created. I challenge anyone who has not played\rigged rudder system in the past 6 months to go sit in an Challenger or CRJ with the same condition as the incident airplane and do a flight control check. You will be amazed at how normal the system feels.
the difference is really, and i want to emphasize really subtle.

Not saying that it is OK to leave a rig pin in, though.
I have seen that happen in the past, exact same airplane type. It allowed to a better awareness of CL600 series airplane rudder system.
Truth is the operator was looking for a way out of this contract and that incident just gave them the way to do it.

[Vickers vanguard]

First of all, for the idiot who said the a/c flew with the rig pin..declared an emergency and bla, bla bla. I say, shut your bloody F,$#!g mouth if you don't have the real facts, it never left the apron. Here's what happened, Somebody, ( a mechanic...but this is just a detail) started a rigging of the nosewheel steering system, installed a rig pin in the forward pilot rudder quadrant instead of the copilot side as per AMM. It was not the task with the CFMS rigging that caused this as some people believed. The CFMS task was done without rig pins, but that's another story in itself. Coming back to the original subject, the Individual ran out of time or was delayed, we would never know, and an avionic on the night shift inhirited the task. The fact that the rig pin was installed was not known to the avionic guy, so he proceeded to install one on the copilot side. You can see where I'm going with this, the task was completed and the rig pin was removed from the right hand side only. I don't know if he ever did a check of the rudder pedals but as Challenger dan already said and I confirm it, having spent a couple of years on the CL605, the system will behave and feel close to normal unless you're bloody familiar with the feel.
Both guys involved were great guys and qualified.The avionic guy was a very good tech with about 10 years experience on the CRJ/ challenger 604/605. Both guys shared responsibility for that. It took some time before they realised what had happened as it was not evident.
lack of a complete rig pin kit for each station greatly contributed to this event. Air Wisconsin did not leave for this reason, they left because they got a better deal somewhere else. The company was audited by the FAA and no major findings were found. Air Wisconsin I believe ended-up paying a hefty penalty as they did not have a valid reason to break that contract.

[planemikey]

Rig Pin soved and agreed it is not even a blip on the screen as to why our Airline maintenance jobs are leaving Canada and why we can not attract work from out side Canada
It doesn't help that Spar /Edmonton , Field Aviation / Calgary , Aero Aviation calgary and Ex-celtech/ quebec no longer do heavy maintenance as there now are less places to take maintenance to .

Reasons :

35%--hourly rate
15 %--Canadian $$
10%--efficiency
0 %--Quality
5 %--TC red tape
0%--Corporate tax structure
10%--lack of government awareness and supprt ( unless your Air Canada or Chrysler )
10%--unions
15% other countries protectionism
I may have missed some but it would be good to see the responces and if they can attach a % estimate to each reason or even add some .

[electraguy]

JohnKruck, you must be an airline owner, or at least a sworn republican.

Canada is terrible place to do maintenance? Becuase people here would actually like some quality of life, and not be treated like slaves, under paid and under trained? Thats ridiculous at best. The South American Comapnys do it cheap, of course, because they pay crap wages, no benefits, poor facilitys etc. Its pretty sad when even aviation is becoming like a WalMart. We just send everything overseas, putting our own people out fo work, so that the general public can have there $59 dollar seat. Well, having worked on some of these aircraft that have been maintained at some overseas facilitys I will tell you that its only a matter of time before one of these birds makes the 6 o'clock news. If these guys can't use the MM, the SRM and the rest of these documents properly they shouldn't be working on aircraft. Just "get r done" is not good enough. It must be done right, and to the manuals to be legal and TC should be all over these operators who are using these foriegn facilitys making sure that the work is up to par, and if its not, the fines to the operator should be heavy. Do you take your expensive car to the WalMart service center or would you rather have trained personnel working on it.

[crazy_aviator]

Who was it that sent the technical know-how overseas ? USA/ Canada etc ? and what do we have now ? the consequenses! The NWO is on schedule, bringing down the 1st world countries and bringing up the 3rd world countries ,,,,there is only 1 problem ,,,,this country of ours SHALL become much like a 3rd world country and there is NOTHING we can do about it !!!!

[SeptRepair]

Reasons :

35%--hourly rate
15 %--Canadian $$
10%--efficiency
0 %--Quality
5 %--TC red tape
0%--Corporate tax structure
10%--lack of government awareness and supprt ( unless your Air Canada or Chrysler )
10%--unions
15% other countries protectionism
I may have missed some but it would be good to see the responces and if they can attach a % estimate to each reason or even add some .

Very hard for someone like myself to attach an educated opinion to heavy maintenance when I really have never worked it. But I would think the 5% red tape is on the extreme low side. It seems there is so much emphasis on paper work and regulatory oversight that maintenance companies are handcuffed to focusing a significant amount of their resources into tracking the maintenance then actually performing it.