Captain/FO vs. Pilot/Co-pilot

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:42 pm

I know it has changed over the years with the advent of CRM and all that.

My opinion is that Captain or First Officer is the Rank you hold, And that Pilot or Co-pilot is the job or position you are filling on that particular flight.

Any other thoughts??

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:46 pm

So tell me what is the difference?
its the same thing.
I am now intreged though...

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:49 pm

I don't really think there is much of a difference. Except that a someone who holds the rank of Captain can be a co-pilot when two captains fly together.

Everyone seems to use the terms interchangably. I'm just curious what others think thats all.

CAWI · Post by **CAWI** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:04 pm

Just wait till you little boys fly the line. Then you'll see.

R2000/1830 · Post by **R2000/1830** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:12 pm

Its all just ego, when your in a plane in should be PF and PNF.

M4A1 · Post by **M4A1** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:17 pm

generaly when I hear people talking who are in the industry, they use captain/first officer.

when my family is talking or someone who has no idea, they use pilot/co-pilot.

everytime my dad flies and we have a little rough landing, he says "whoops, it must have been the co-pilot flying this flight" not realizing that they are highly qualified in the cockpit, he thinks its just some guy learning to fly in the right seat!!! i hate it when he does that.

Ryan Coke · Post by **Ryan Coke** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:28 pm

My only beef with the co-pilot handle is when people say "are you the pilot? Or the co-pilot?". Well, I am a pilot, so I don't like it when people act like I am something other than that. Either that or we are both co-pilots, and both pilots.

Not that it really matters, it is usually just people that don't know alot about the industry. Although the Borek guys seem to use the co-pilot thing alot too.

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:51 pm

"so when are you going to be a commercial pilot?"

"so when are you going to be THE pilot?"

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:31 am

I agree that PF and PNF is the best way to look at it. Except that the Captain just has the final decision. I also hate the notion that the guy in the right seat is just there learning to fly. I don't think that F/O's get the respect they deserve from the general flying public. This may be because of how it used to be back in the 30's. Has anyone read Fate is the Hunter?
Great book.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:21 am

God/Gear Jerker . . . no?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:14 am

Master/Slave
All Knowing, Wise One/Fool

Really though, this capt/fo crap comes from seafaring days. In the real world, it's just two guys/gals trying to get the job done. What's with this "rank" thing anyway?

scotothedoublet · Post by **scotothedoublet** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:50 am

"Gear up, flaps up, hands on your knees and shut the f**k up." It has a nice ring but makes me cry on the inside.

I'm guessing the whole rank thing comes from post-war aviation. Never could understand why paramedics and security guards wear rank either.

Katmando · Post by **Katmando** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:15 am

Doc wrote:Master/Slave
All Knowing, Wise One/Fool

Really though, this capt/fo crap comes from seafaring days. In the real world, it's just two guys/gals trying to get the job done. What's with this "rank" thing anyway?

The rank thing is that someone must assume overall responsibility, and that is why the captain is paid the bigger bucks. When a new F/O starts and is just starting a new company ,aircraft, routes and SOP's he/she may still have much to learn and may be in need of a lot of coaching from the captain. This is normal. A well seasoned F/O however may very well have flying skills that are equil to or better than the captain. I have flown with F/O's who were more skilled on the aircraft than I was when I was promoted to captain but they were not as lucky as myself in hitting the expansion cycle. I do not agree with pilot/copilot as they are both assesed to the same standards. All transport aircraft are certified with the condition that a qualified pilot is also seated in the right seat.

peeelot · Post by **peeelot** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:38 am

I don't care what I am called Co-pilot ,F/O, Co-slave, 200 pound dead weight who can do a simple task, Just give me a job in the right seat I don't care.

BUt when it comes down to it all It should be Capt and F/O more professional and they deserve the have respect.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:44 am

Paramedics wear their rank so they can identify who is the most qualified when there are several units. 1 bar is a Primary Care medic (most ambulance drivers are this). 2 bars is an advanced care medic and three bars is a critical care medic - in Ontario anyways.

The airport security guards where rank mostly for self esteem. They all seem to be Sergeant's.

disco · Post by **disco** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:51 am

I just can't believe there's even a thread on this...

Guido · Post by **Guido** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:01 am

Bede wrote:The airport security guards where rank mostly for self esteem. They all seem to be Sergeant's.

Haha, if you're actually curious the three bars that most screeners have mean that they are a Level 3 screener (meaning that they can operate at the X-Ray, Wand, and "Greeter" positions)

Level 1s are only allowed on "Greeter", Level 2s are also allowed on the WTMD and HHMD (Wand). But, so far, I've never seen anyone with 2 stripes or one stripe... they just seem to go without epaulettes until they're through their training.

Oh, and screeners with one red stripe are "Point Leaders", or line supervisors.

Snagmaster E · Post by **Snagmaster E** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:42 am

I get a kick out of the flight schools that make the student wear 1 bar for year 1 dips and 2 bars for second year. (yeah, I know, I'm guilty of doing it, but I'd have rather worn regular clothes - and I did half the time). When I did it, it was only the second years. Ranks that mean nothing. Like Mall security.

I wonder if fast food joints will ever come out with ranks.....

Frier First Class ... McNuggets Master Seargent ... Extra Tasty Crispy Corporal.....

Navajo-dude · Post by **Navajo-dude** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:51 am

FO should be called "First Mate"

PA31 Driver · Post by **PA31 Driver** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:48 pm

Canus Chinookus wrote:"so when are you going to be a commercial pilot?"

"so when are you going to be THE pilot?"

I love it when I hear that......

xduster · Post by **xduster** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:55 pm

Three rules to being a co pilot.......

1) Yes i'll have the chicken
2) I'll take the fat one....
3) It must of been a gust

Cap'n P8 · Post by **Cap'n P8** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:39 pm

The sergeant rank he was referring to was the guy's rank when he was in the military. Guards at airports are commissionaire's, to be elegible to join the commissionaire's you had to have a certain minimum time as an enlisted member in the military.

snag · Post by **snag** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:56 pm

(When talking about an F/O) - "Pound for pound, I'd rather have fuel"
I never got tired of hearing that one. Or being the "Flap Operator". Or the Cap pointing to the gear handle "this is lever A, everything else is "leave 'er be".

All in good fun though. It seems like nowadays everyone has done the CRM thing and most guys struggled just the same to get into flying.

Captain vs F/O is just an indication of responsibility (chain of command), not necessarily skill level. It just happens that responsiblity is granted with experience. Both individuals are Pilots. Co-Pilot is a civilian term used only by those who don't know any better. Just like the question "when will they let you fly REAL airplanes?"

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:55 pm

Agreed

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:19 pm

When writing the SOP's and under the tutelege of an ex-military chief pilot, this is the criteria.
Captain(4 stripes) and F/O(3 stripes) are titles bestowed upon a pilot when he/she has the required credentials, experience and/or seniority to hold these positions. Flight engineer(2 stripes) is a ride along mechanic(by his/her choice).
Captain is the most senior of the flight crew and is responsible for the conduct of the flight.
PF is the pilot manipulating the controls.
PNF is the pilot assisting the PF.
LSP is the pilot sitting in the left seat, used where controls are reachable only from that seat.
RSP is the other guy.
In the major airlines and those attempting to mimic the majors, the pecking order is determined by management, based on tradition and pay scale. For others it is pay scale and/or gender. (female pilot on the space shuttle because she is lighter than a dishwasher. Hopefully this thinking is dying)
For many of us, the F/O RSP is a voice activated autopilot, with others it is a Captain -in - training.
Unfortunatly with many crusty old pilots, there are 3 levers, lever alone, lever alone and lever alone.