Retirement - Split from Hiring

[Rockie]

Rocky: You don`t need to tell me what you think is good for me.

I'm not. I'm suggesting it isn't near as bad as people are telling you, and when you're older chances are you will be glad this change happened.

Lost in Saigon: I`m proposing viable solutions that everyone can live with to accommodate those who wish to stay. Bottom line is the change would occur over a generation without negative impact to anyone.

Well, if you don't include people being discriminated against then I guess you might be right. Kind of like in the 60's letting black people sit in the second to last row on a bus instead of the last. You know, gradually work their way to the front like everybody else so the change isn't so traumatic for the poor white folk.

[Gurundu the Rat]

You`re not fooling anyone you know. I read the documents. The court clearly states the fly past 60 group can be accommodated by changing the terms of employment at a certain age. That`s not forcing anyone to retire hence non discriminatory. You ought to be ashamed of yourself comparing your plight to the hardships black people endured.

[Lost in Saigon]

Age discrimination is the same as race discrimination in the eyes of the Canadian Human Rights Act.

You will not be able to slowly accomdate those who wish to works past 60. It's all or nothing. Start getting used to it.

This Act may be cited as the Canadian Human Rights Act.
1976-77, c. 33, s. 1.

PURPOSE OF ACT
Purpose

2. The purpose of this Act is to extend the laws in Canada to give effect, within the purview of matters coming within the legislative authority of Parliament, to the principle that all individuals should have an opportunity equal with other individuals to make for themselves the lives that they are able and wish to have and to have their needs accommodated, consistent with their duties and obligations as members of society, without being hindered in or prevented from doing so by discriminatory practices based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, disability or conviction for an offence for which a pardon has been granted.

[Rockie]

The court clearly states the fly past 60 group can be accommodated by changing the terms of employment at a certain age.

That doesn't mean sending them to the bottom of the list, or denying them the right to sit as Captain, or deny them pension benefits, or force them to collect their pension at a certain age regardless of how many years service they have. The simple matter is pilots over 60 can continue working without limitation with absolutely no change to their employment, so you would have a very difficult time convincing the CHRT that one was needed. The fact that younger pilots are pissed off won't do it I'm afraid.

There is a discussion where they cite university professors negotiating a mutually agreed upon change to their employment when they reach a certain well advanced age. The difference is that it is done with the individual, and any change recieves that person's explicit consent.

It's a different situation with us. In our case it would be a bargaining agent negotiating our rights away without the individual's explicit consent, and the CHRT has a very different view of that.

[Mig29]

All I can say is that if I was contemplating on staying on past 60 at the expense of one of my junior colleagues getting laid off or bumped to a lower position because of my greed I couldn't live with myself.
Furthermore I would tend to think that the extra 5 years that I stay would be rather unpleasant seing that I would be having dinner and happy hour alone on all the layovers and that none of the FO's and RP's (about to be laid off or demoted to that position because of me) that I fly with talk to me.
But hey it will still beat having to get a life outside of flying or forming an identity other than being a ''captain''.
I pitty you guys and I think that most of this greed is actually not so much financial so much as that you don't really have a life or anything interesting to do after you retire.
And when you go to dinner parties you can lie and still tell people you are an Air Canada captain so you feel better about yourself.....just don't stay and f..ck everybody.

Well said!!!!
And I will say it again, it is all because of greed and not "having a life" that this whole BS 65 argument got a lift off in the first place. And to all of you "junior" AC pilots, who say that they started at AC with 15 years before you hit 60, and are whining that you might not have "enough" when you retire, I want to ask you where were you in the previous 25 years of your young working life???? So now these f****** 5 extra years are going to make a tremendous difference in your stock options??? While screwing an entire "supply chain" of pilots waiting for their crack of AC. And not just those guys, but guys who are waiting behind them to fill in their spots at some less "fancier" jobs than the Big Red.


And all this "for the sake of love of flying" nonsense!!!??? Give me a f****** break!!! Go take your pension and work as an instructor instilling the great experience and skill gained from 30-40 years of flying. Fly charter jets, fly for fun or help sick patients get free or cheaper flights for their medical trips, volunteer....just don't sell me this love of flying sh*t!! I guess it's hard to step down from a audi or bimmer into a honda civic, I believe you...I get that sometimes too, but I still haven't lost touch with reality and know that I can live the way I did 15 years ago....

Someone has said that already....it's because most of these people never had or will have a life, they have to supplement it by screwing others for few more years! Pathetic and sad man!
This "amazing" career of ours is just getting more dignifying by the minute!

I wonder when AC used to retire at 55 back in the days, how did people were able to survive on their pension after a 'short' career like that!???

[babybus]

All I can say is that if I was contemplating on staying on past 60 at the expense of one of my junior colleagues getting laid off or bumped to a lower position because of my greed I couldn't live with myself.
Furthermore I would tend to think that the extra 5 years that I stay would be rather unpleasant seing that I would be having dinner and happy hour alone on all the layovers and that none of the FO's and RP's (about to be laid off or demoted to that position because of me) that I fly with talk to me.
But hey it will still beat having to get a life outside of flying or forming an identity other than being a ''captain''.
I pitty you guys and I think that most of this greed is actually not so much financial so much as that you don't really have a life or anything interesting to do after you retire.
And when you go to dinner parties you can lie and still tell people you are an Air Canada captain so you feel better about yourself.....just don't stay and f..ck everybody.

Well said!!!!
And I will say it again, it is all because of greed and not "having a life" that this whole BS 65 argument got a lift off in the first place. And to all of you "junior" AC pilots, who say that they started at AC with 15 years before you hit 60, and are whining that you might not have "enough" when you retire, I want to ask you where were you in the previous 25 years of your young working life???? So now these f****** 5 extra years are going to make a tremendous difference in your stock options??? While screwing an entire "supply chain" of pilots waiting for their crack of AC. And not just those guys, but guys who are waiting behind them to fill in their spots at some less "fancier" jobs than the Big Red.


And all this "for the sake of love of flying" nonsense!!!??? Give me a f****** break!!! Go take your pension and work as an instructor instilling the great experience and skill gained from 30-40 years of flying. Fly charter jets, fly for fun or help sick patients get free or cheaper flights for their medical trips, volunteer....just don't sell me this love of flying sh*t!! I guess it's hard to step down from a audi or bimmer into a honda civic, I believe you...I get that sometimes too, but I still haven't lost touch with reality and know that I can live the way I did 15 years ago....

Someone has said that already....it's because most of these people never had or will have a life, they have to supplement it by screwing others for few more years! Pathetic and sad man!
This "amazing" career of ours is just getting more dignifying by the minute!

I wonder when AC used to retire at 55 back in the days, how did people were able to survive on their pension after a 'short' career like that!???

It's called planning ahead......

[Rockie]

It's called planning ahead......

No, it's called life. Something a lot of you have woefully little experience in judging by the way you see it.

Trying to explain to you some of the vagaries of life, and how people's attitudes change when they get a few more years of it under their belt is like talking to a teenager. You know...like bashing your head against a wall. Likewise trying to explain demographic, sociological and economic changes today compared to the good old days that you constantly cite but know absolutely nothing about. It's like you guys never read a newspaper. And then there's the whining crybaby syndrome that you guys are being robbed as if everybody owes you a living...

It will come as a real shock to you when it finally sinks in that nobody owes you anything.

So pound your fist on the table if you must swearing that you will never want or need to work past 60. But it's nothing more than meaningless, uninformed bravado. You have no clue.

[Mig29]

Rockie,
please don't talk about life and experiences, because if anything has taught me from coming to this part of the world is that people are way too much spoiled, greedy, selfish and self centered. I don't know if it's the lack of wars, bad (I mean, really bad) economic times, or general hardship that people have not endured here (thank God) in the last 50-60 years made people become like this, but it definitively isn't good for us all the way this society is heading.

My parents at one time have lost their jobs at the same time here, just after moving to a new place. They survived that year with two kids who were going to school, with roughly a total "income" of about $25K!! And kept the property...This was not Africa or eastern European country I'm talking about, this was here, in Canada! Now, maybe it's because they saw first hand how s***y life can be overseas, where a doctor-surgeon barely made $500 a month and a pilot flying 737 was taking home 10K euros a year!

If you guys, regardless if you are coming from AC, WJ, Transat can't "afford" to retire by 55 or 60, pulling in above an average income than most people, than yes, there is a serious problem in your life planning! There are always other things in life aside from flying to supplement your income. But, I say it again, coming down from a 30' yacht or 500hp german coupe to a more leveled ground, is tough, but it's not impossible.

[Rockie]

You've learned nothing from your parents. I know people in this business in their mid 40's who have survived on much less than 25K/year for much longer than a year. Not when you were a kid either...right now. It had nothing to do with bad planning, but rather bad luck. If your parents experience taught you nothing else it should be that the best laid plans don't usually pan out exactly the way you want them to.

You are under this misguided impression that people need to work to support their 30' sailboat. You need to open your eyes. You are also ignoring the hiring reality that now exists at Air Canada. You are also ignoring the demographic shift occurring in Canada. You are also completely ignoring the fact that this isn't a debate anymore. Mandatory retirement is dead in Canada. You can chalk that up as one of the million or so things that can cause your plans to go slightly awry despite your best efforts. Maybe there's a lesson in this for all you guys who think the world will unfold as you foresee it?

What you think about people who choose to work beyond 60 is almost surely wrong and 100% irrelevant. If I choose to work beyond 60 I certainly won't be consulting you on the reasons so anything you speculate is pure rubbish.

[the original tony]

So then rockie, what are your plans when your fighters of justice come back and you are laid off?
Please no more shit about no layoffs, all lies and ACPA rumors. They are still giving LOA's. So no need to hire.
You seem to have this all sewn up. So, with your full acceptance of work till you die, since ANY age is now discriminatory to retire. What are your plans when they start cutting?
I mean, you are fully prepared right? when it does happen cause it's a done deal.
I'm interested, maybe i'll join you on a new venture. @#$! flying
It's all for the birds and seniors anyway.

Tony

[Rockie]

I don't know Tony...maybe I'll go be a Walmart greeter for the duration. It's not like I've never been unemployed and had to look for work before. I survived it then, I'll survive it this time too if it comes to that. Which it won't, so stop instilling unwarranted fear.

The good news is I'll be able to work longer if I want to make up for it, and actually end up as high or higher on the list than I would have otherwise. Pretty good trade-off in my mind. Especially since all the other things that negatively impact my career offer no trade-off whatsoever.

I've been doing some analyzing of the seniority list, and I've come up with some surprising numbers that address all the outrage regarding stagnated career progression.

Of the Toronto based 777 FO's: 8 could hold 330 CA, 43 (34%) could hold 767 CA, and all 125 (100%)of them could hold 320 CA.

Of the Toronto based 777 RP's: 6 (11%) could hold 330 FO, 46 (87%) could hold 767 FO, 31 (60%) could hold 320 CA, and 100% could hold EMJ CA.

Of the Toronto based 330 FO's: 100% of them could be 320 CA's

Of the Toronto based 767 FO's: 116 (92%) of them could hold 320 CA.

Of the Toronto based 320 FO's: 69 (21%) could hold 320 CA, and 205 (61%) could hold EMJ CA.

Of the Toronto Based EMJ FO's: 61 (27%) could hold 320 FO.


I haven't mentioned how many Captains could hold the next higher airplane but choose not to, but the numbers are equally surprising. Clearly, career stagnation isn't the big deal ACPA and some make it out to be since as a group most of do it to ourselves willingly anyway.

[the original tony]

Walmart it is. Atleast i'll get a discount.
My question is how do you see no layoffs?
I understand that a lot of guys could hold higher positions, but without people vacating those said positions, how do i hold it?
Sorry, i'm not prepared to starve my family now so that they can be comfy when i'm near dead. I hope to god by then they won't be living at home and getting their diapers changed by me, maybe they will be changing mine, or the FO will!!
Maybe better pay for that?
I fully plan on enjoying retirement, not fighting each month to hold the best schedule to fly with guys who would rather see me choke on my chicken crew meal.
Its time to stop making others suffer for misplanning on your part. The epitomy of selfish. If things didn't work out the way you wanted, fix it. I think that can be much more easily accomplished by a 60 yr old retiree with 100g than me and my family of 4 on 42g.
either way, best of luck with your planning, hope it works out for ya.

Tony

[sepia]

I don't know Tony...maybe I'll go be a Walmart greeter for the duration. It's not like I've never been unemployed and had to look for work before. I survived it then, I'll survive it this time too if it comes to that. Which it won't, so stop instilling unwarranted fear.

The good news is I'll be able to work longer if I want to make up for it, and actually end up as high or higher on the list than I would have otherwise. Pretty good trade-off in my mind. Especially since all the other things that negatively impact my career offer no trade-off whatsoever.

I've been doing some analyzing of the seniority list, and I've come up with some surprising numbers that address all the outrage regarding stagnated career progression.

Of the Toronto based 777 FO's: 8 could hold 330 CA, 43 (34%) could hold 767 CA, and all 125 (100%)of them could hold 320 CA.

Of the Toronto based 777 RP's: 6 (11%) could hold 330 FO, 46 (87%) could hold 767 FO, 31 (60%) could hold 320 CA, and 100% could hold EMJ CA.

Of the Toronto based 330 FO's: 100% of them could be 320 CA's

Of the Toronto based 767 FO's: 116 (92%) of them could hold 320 CA.

Of the Toronto based 320 FO's: 69 (21%) could hold 320 CA, and 205 (61%) could hold EMJ CA.

Of the Toronto Based EMJ FO's: 61 (27%) could hold 320 FO.


I haven't mentioned how many Captains could hold the next higher airplane but choose not to, but the numbers are equally surprising. Clearly, career stagnation isn't the big deal ACPA and some make it out to be since as a group most of do it to ourselves willingly anyway.

That's a post illustrating people who've chosen lifestyle over career progression. You're not offering those who's careers will be stalled Christmas off or summer holidays. There is no lifestyle increase with people refusing to leave. If anything there would be a decrease in lifestyle as the junior people get frustrated with crappy money and crappy lifestyle and take leaves, dragging those above them down in relative seniority.

If you were offering me 8 day months, August off, December block finished by the 15th I'd certainly think a lot more of the fly past 60 crew. Instead, they want to keep all that, and take more from the trough. It's okay what's another 5 years of 17-19 dpg days months on reserve if it helps the guys on top after all?

[Rockie]

That's a post illustrating people who've chosen lifestyle over career progression. You're not offering those who's careers will be stalled Christmas off or summer holidays. There is no lifestyle increase with people refusing to leave. If anything there would be a decrease in lifestyle as the junior people get frustrated with crappy money and crappy lifestyle and take leaves, dragging those above them down in relative seniority.

If you were offering me 8 day months, August off, December block finished by the 15th I'd certainly think a lot more of the fly past 60 crew. Instead, they want to keep all that, and take more from the trough. It's okay what's another 5 years of 17-19 dpg days months on reserve if it helps the guys on top after all?

Do you seriously think getting Christmas off or summer holidays takes precedence over age discrimination? Try going to the CHRT with a lame ass argument like that and you'll get spanked like the child you come across as.

[the original tony]

I guess you haven't come up with a way these guys can bid up to all those amazing positions if the top don't leave.
I did like your walmart answer though, well thought out for guys who have a real threat of being laid off.
Like i said before greed in the name of human rights brings the whole system down a notch.
Kind of like playing the race card being a white male in canada, is it really going to work???
Your problem i believe started when you bought into this being anything but greed.
I understand all the rhetoric of economic times changing, and the need to work till death do you part. This is very much the sense of entitlement these guys bring to court as you accuse the younger guys of having the nerve to keep their jobs.
There is a gross error if you think people are against this age 60 crap to make chief pilot tomorrow. They want to keep their job, plain and simple. Our industry clearly doesn't need anyone staying longer now than it ever did.
You are comparing people making 250g's to people that make minimum wage needing to stay longer to retire.
How wrong is that? Tell someone at your future employer walmart, i'll give you 100g to retire now. Hard choice.
There are all types of discrimination going on in canada and the world today, but none of them will make you rich like this one. So let's deal with this instead.
If you cannot retire now on the quarter mill salary plus pension when done, then 5 more years aren't going to do shit for you.
It will however affect folks who don't make that in 7 years.
I don't care what anyone says, never did. This is plain discrimination against the people doing real work for the company,
the ones who stupidly left good jobs to come to this shit show now in progress.
I am sorry for all that it will affect.
Good thing canada added to their EI benefit plan.

Tony

[Max111]

Excellent post Rockie !!!!! Their degree of entitlement staggers the imagination.

Max111

[Rockie]

You just don't get it Tony. Almost nobody hired in the last 15-20 years is going to make the kind of pension you're talking about. And I predict you'll change your tune on adding another five years to pensionable time when that fact finally sinks in and you're actually faced with it, as will everybody else here.

I much prefer the initiative currently going around of improving the lot of junior pilots independently of this pension issue. Because afterall, the retirement age isn't the problem is it?

[Old fella]

Not wanting to get between the piss squirting contest amongst you big swinging dicks at Air Canada but I gotta ask this question:Care to share with us outside wretches how many of your bretheren are planning to stay beyond 60 yrs old of the one who are at this age now and have to go.

And yes.... if it isn't any of my "effin" business, say that as well!!!

[Rockie]

It's no secret old fella...but nobody knows the answer to that question. But if you go by ACPA's financial impact study then 100% of the pilots will stay beyond age 60, which will cause massive financial damage to the 100% of the pilots who will leave at 60.

Doesn't make sense you say? You're right...it doesn't.

[circlingfor69]

What do you expect ACPA to do Rockie?????? There is the absolute potential for 100% of pilots to stay beyond 60 if this Bullsh#t ever goes through. Therefore there is the potential for the junior pilots to be damaged exactly as ACPA effectively illustrated in the finacial impact study.

[Rockie]

You're kidding right?

[Lost in Saigon]

Not wanting to get between the piss squirting contest amongst you big swinging dicks at Air Canada but I gotta ask this question:Care to share with us outside wretches how many of your bretheren are planning to stay beyond 60 yrs old of the one who are at this age now and have to go.

And yes.... if it isn't any of my "effin" business, say that as well!!!

Nobody knows. My guess is initially 20% would go about 2-3 years beyond 60. It will vary from year to year, depending on their years of service when they hit 60. Those with 25-35 years will have less reason to go past 60. Those with 20 or less will gain substantially by staying a few extra years.

[Old fella]

It's no secret old fella...but nobody knows the answer to that question. But if you go by ACPA's financial impact study then 100% of the pilots will stay beyond age 60, which will cause massive financial damage to the 100% of the pilots who will leave at 60.

Doesn't make sense you say? You're right...it doesn't.

As well Rockie there is another element that many do not think off until you reach that magical age of 60 yrs that can only be understood by those who are already there(like me). That element is " f--- it, I had enough and I am out of here" the wildcard element.

It happens believe me because I have seen it happen , guys just decide that's it. Nothing spooks us older farts more that hearing about a companion, former acquaintance, retiree who just got out and a year after health issues that knocked him down. How many times have i heard about a person who stayed beyond 65 yrs on the job, got sick at 67 yrs and dead by 71 yrs. Didn't get the opportunity do do what I could, even though I took in less money. His job was his life and it claimed him.
That 60 age group I know and hang about with know this and that is why the trend will be to get out of it all , period. Regardless what human rights may rule on your issue past 60 yrs for AC pilots or for that matter what AC Mgt plans to do, I would argue many of your pilots will retire as soon as they hit 60 yrs old.......

[Mig29]

As well Rockie there is another element that many do not think off until you reach that magical age of 60 yrs that can only be understood by those who are already there(like me). That element is " f--- it, I had enough and I am out of here" the wildcard element.

It happens believe me because I have seen it happen , guys just decide that's it. Nothing spooks us older farts more that hearing about a companion, former acquaintance, retiree who just got out and a year after health issues that knocked him down. How many times have i heard about a person who stayed beyond 65 yrs on the job, got sick at 67 yrs and dead by 71 yrs. Didn't get the opportunity do do what I could, even though I took in less money. His job was his life and it claimed him.
That 60 age group I know and hang about with know this and that is why the trend will be to get out of it all , period. Regardless what human rights may rule on your issue past 60 yrs for AC pilots or for that matter what AC Mgt plans to do, I would argue many of your pilots will retire as soon as they hit 60 yrs old.......

Thank you Old Fella for bringing one major point in this whole game....I personally know some friends of mine in this business, whose fathers were top AC lads, near or at their retirement age, and who for some unexplained reason died shortly after...with no warning signs whatsoever during their last few years of service. Just gone.....barely even touched their pension. This guys haven't even crossed past 65!! Now, I might be the only paranoid guy here, but I'm completely aware that every day in my office up there, I put my body through stress that ultimately eats away at my life expectancy. Solar radiation, cockpit radiation, sleep deprivation, time changes, shitty food on the go, irregular eating schedules, lack of exercise, emotional stress (not being with your loved ones, family, friends) and your boss who is looking for any reason to fire your ass for a mistake that happens to all of us humans. (you ACPA people got some good leverage on this last matter, but ultimately if something happens, it is YOUR ass on the line, and no one else. And media will have no mercy for you either)... These are all things that sometimes we don't even realize that are affecting us, but they do, some just don't see them and some are little more resilient then others. So, again, when someone much smarter than me, or you, put this 55 or 60 rule in place, they had a good reason for it, and it has nothing to do with discrimination or human rights. It was meant to PROTECT US. And give us a fair chance of enjoying some of that retirement life left over, with a good change of making it past 65 alive!

Now Rockie, my dad is not lucky to even dream near to your salary, and believe me, his pension won't be even near yours. As a matter of fact, he may not even make $10K/year. Why? Because he got layoff more than he can count on his fingers in an industry that is slightly shittier than ours (think: transportation) And because he hasn't lived here in Canada for more than 15 years to be entitled to a decent pension in the first place. But, he's not complaining or blaming Canada, and he will certainly not blame anyone for not being able to work past 65 to "touch up" his pension fund outlook! You folks have issues that go beyond normal reason, and require experts with skills to trouble shoot those issues, which I'm not even qualified to talk about. Take it however you want, I mean no harm to any of you fellas, and I wish you all the best, but I will never understand you just like it seems like you will never hear our side of the story. Call it greed, ignorance or just lack of reason, I'm done with this bickering, because it will lead me nowhere.

But I will be able to sleep with a clear conscious tonight, and that's priceless gentlemen! Sorry Master Card

[Rockie]

That 60 age group I know and hang about with know this and that is why the trend will be to get out of it all , period. Regardless what human rights may rule on your issue past 60 yrs for AC pilots or for that matter what AC Mgt plans to do, I would argue many of your pilots will retire as soon as they hit 60 yrs old.......

I agree 100% Old Fella. Can you see the inconvenient credibility problem the union and those arguing against ending age discrimination now face? They are arguing that nobody wants to go past 60. If that's the case then there is no problem and the financial impact study is a bunch of BS because it's based on everybody staying past 60. If everybody chooses to leave at 60 then where's the problem?

Now, if as the financial impact study assumes everybody chooses to stay beyond 60, who exactly is ACPA representing here by fighting this?

Your point about getting tired of it all and leaving regardless of ability to stay is no doubt correct for some. But so what? That's their choice to leave and nobody is chaining them to an airplane. But if they want to stay that will be their option as well. This is about removing mandatory retirement, not forcing someone to stay against their will which some (apparently you as well) think is the case.

Take it however you want, I mean no harm to any of you fellas, and I wish you all the best, but I will never understand you just like it seems like you will never hear our side of the story.

Well, that's not exactly correct. Age based mandatory retirement is age discrimination which you are all in favour of. How can you say forcing someone to give up their job and stop contributing to their pension because they had a birthday is not harming them? You and everybody else at Air Canada have got to wrap your heads around this discrimination thing. It is no different in today's Canada than denying your father employment because he wasn't born here. Would that be harming your father?

During the civil rights movement many people had difficulty understanding why race discrimination was considered harmful too. You have some adjusting to do to your attitude. But if you can sleep comfortably while supporting age discrimination good for you. You're certainly not alone here at Air Canada. You will however have to stop the practice because it is no longer tolerated in Canada.

ACPA has their head firmly jammed up their ass fighting these HRT challenges. This is not a few Air Canada pilots forcing this, it is the direction the entire country has already gone. You guys can understand that or not, but it will make not a bit of difference.