Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

[tdi_ywg]

I too was not going to say anything but after reading the entire thread and thinking about my experience I felt the need to chime in.

I recall very clearly knowing right from the beginning of my training at NCTI that the success rate is very low. Did it affect, in any way, my desire to continue? No. Did I ever think "Oh, maybe I should just quit since only 35% of us trainees will get a license."? No. I trained every day with the idea in my mind that I was going to get a license. Some days perhaps not so much (like the time I f*&#ed up a clearance on my check ride. Really fun.). I think that you would be hard pressed to find a trainee that does not go to work every day with that same idea in their mind. You say that you were not aware of the low success rate, which raises the following question: Had you known that the success rate was so low, would you have up and quit right at the start? Honestly. I have never heard of anyone packing it in because they found out that the success rate is what it is.

I just cannot see how it could be possible that you were not aware of the low success rate. As a previous poster said, move on with your life. Not everyone is capable of obtaining an ATC license. That's just the way it is

Do you think that a teenage hockey player who gets a spot on a junior team (WHL, OHL, QMJHL) thinks "Well, I know that I will never make the NHL but what the heck, I'll do this anyways."?

But of course anonymity brings down all the barrier.

Sorry, I never caught your name.

Scott Nystrom
WG ACC

[IFRATC]

Sounds to me like all your posts reflect that of ALL trainees who have been CT'ed. You exhausted all your time and efforts into excuses. At no point in your training was the responsibility yours??? You are an adult. The resources are there. Did you exhaust ANY of your energy to seek individual help??? Did you talk to anyone about YOUR TRAINING? You are responsible for being CT'ed. Stop telling everyone on here about how hard done by YOU were. Excuses equate to whining.
I have had many many trainees in my 13 years thus far. I make every effort to see them succeed. The onus is on the trainee to learn and progress. I am only the facilitator of this learning. A backboard lets call it. Don't use me as your excuse for not succeeding. Grow up...

IFRATC

[IFRATC]

Just to continue...Do you think this was a breeze for all of us who do carry a licence??? We all had to overcome hurdles and struggles in training. At NO point did I think it was someone elses fault if I was not climbing the learning curve. It was my responsibilty. My licence was waiting for me. I just had to work very hard to get it. That will never change...

IFRATC

[RampGurl]

Um.... this is a ridiculous idea. Do you think students that PAY for a course at university and fail deserve their money back or have the right to file a law suit? Why would ATC training be any different?

[Jerricho]

My point is Nav Canada should do a better job at selecting its trainee.

So you went through under the SHL/NCTI system? NATS UK were using SHL around the same time. AirServices Australia were using it as well. There are countless Controllers all over the world who have attained licences having been selected under the same process. As tower controller says, the first person who comes up with a test/formula/crystal ball for candidate screening will become one rich individual.

The truth is with any selection process, there are specific traits/abilities that Air Navigation providers look for, but nobody can ever say if any new hire walking in the door day 1 will be successful in training. Some trainees are ceased trained in the first few weeks of a course (failing written exams which is pretty much inexcusable), some go at various stages of simulation for various reasons (not putting the work OR working their asses off and just not getting it). Some make it to the floor and seem to be progressing well then crap the bed, or stagnate and can't get out of their reliance on the OJI sitting next to them to make decisions. Some can do the job to a certain workload but when things turn to sh*t (weather avoidance, blocked runway) just can't keep up.

[CD]

Sounds to me like all your posts reflect that of ALL trainees who have been CT'ed.

Well, not all of us...

[brtalbot]

Well commended all of you on your loyalty to the company. Maybe it was that trait that i was laking when i went trough who knows. But that fact remain that your success as a trainee a lot to do with who is your instructor. I have no problem admitting that i was CT by my own mistakes. My first mistake was to have a chat with my instructor about how his assessment sheets were a litany of errors with no hints or tricks on how to correct them. He took it very well and promised me to try to help. But after a week there was no change at all. So i did my second mistake. I went to see my course director to see it the situation could improve. Then everything went to motion. The decision was made and the paperwork to justify it was made after. Even after a controller from the floor came up and started coaching me properly (my performance improved within a day of him coaching me).

So back to my point of a class action. I would love to take this case to the court on my own but cannot due to lack money (Nav Canada does have some good lawyers i'm sure), so i am trying to see if there is sufficient candidates with same experience that would warrant a class action. And by the way, do not worry about me, I have moved on with my life very well thank you.

P.S. Mr. Nystrom, i think that i actually know you. Ont North? I maybe wrong. If not, you could even contribute to my story. But the way my username is my actual name and the b stands for Bernard.

[shannon]

I applied to the Winnipeg ballet last week, and to my surprise I didn't make the cut. Do you think I should sue?

[tesox2]

...there comes a time when you need to admit you wont make the NHL, you're not going to be a pro wrestler, you're not marrying a supermodel, you wont have 26 inch biceps, and you cant control planes....

[kevenv]

...there comes a time when you need to admit you wont make the NHL, you're not going to be a pro wrestler, you're not marrying a supermodel, you wont have 26 inch biceps, and you cant control planes....

Dream killer!

[kevenv]

Well commended all of you on your loyalty to the company.

I'll bet you most of us hate the company, or at least dislike it lol.

Maybe it was that trait that i was laking when i went trough who knows. But that fact remain that your success as a trainee a lot to do with who is your instructor. I have no problem admitting that i was CT by my own mistakes. My first mistake was to have a chat with my instructor about how his assessment sheets were a litany of errors with no hints or tricks on how to correct them. He took it very well and promised me to try to help. But after a week there was no change at all. So i did my second mistake. I went to see my course director to see it the situation could improve. Then everything went to motion. The decision was made and the paperwork to justify it was made after. Even after a controller from the floor came up and started coaching me properly (my performance improved within a day of him coaching me).

No problem admitting your own mistakes and then you go on to blame the instructors. This is where your posts turn to whining.

So back to my point of a class action. I would love to take this case to the court on my own but cannot due to lack money (Nav Canada does have some good lawyers i'm sure), so i am trying to see if there is sufficient candidates with same experience that would warrant a class action.

There are tons of CT'd people around and a lot of them probably don't feel that it was their fault that they failed. If you are serious about this I would suggest that AvCanada is NOT the place to find them. I am also pretty sure you don't need any money to hire a lawyer for a legitimate class action lawsuit. If the case is a good one, I would think that lawyers would be lining up to take it on with only the promise of a cut of the settlement. You should call some and see what they say.

So Bernard, time to shit or get off the pot. Go see a lawyer. You can see that there is no sympathy here so further posts whining about bad treatment and unfairness are useless.

[Jerricho]

But that fact remain that your success as a trainee a lot to do with who is your instructor

No, the fact remains your success as a trainee is your ability to do the job. You could be bestest friends in the whole wide world with your instructors, BFFs and all........they're not going to pass you on an exam/simulation/give you a licence if you can't do the job.

[ywgflyboy]

Its like talking to a f-cking doorknob.

AS I asked before? What do you want to get out of this? Money? Another shot at ATC? Cause it wont happen if you sue nav can.

And further to that, what evidence do you have that there was any wrong doing? You signed a letter of understanding (from what I gather from other ATC) acknowledging you knew the process and were ok with that. You proceeded.

Good luck finding a lawyer who wants to ruin their reputation too.

P.s. Votes are in. You should take a look.

[invertedattitude]

Listen bud,

There's one thing you have to understand, no licensed controller I've met WANTS a trainee to fail, we all WANT them to qualify because we've all been through the training process.

The fact is, I want to be able to WORK with the guy/girl day in day out without fearing for MY license, there's a standard to be met, if you don't meet it, your cut, grow up and find another career and stop being such a sook.

If calling you that is a personal attack then so be it, you need to hear it.

[ywgflyboy]

[sigmet77]

Don't listen to Kevenv, keep posting here. I have a wager as to how long you will continue to make excuses why you are not a controller and you haven't reached the number yet.

[cyeg66]

Well, we are a harsh bunch as controllers, aren't we? I do pseudo-empathize with Bernard simply for the fact that it's a thankless environment to train in. I do agree with him in that the instructor on the floor can make one hell of a difference. I've seen some great ones, and some <ahem> less 'good' ones. The fact trainees are also no longer paid until "on" the floor certainly restricts the pool (read: quality) of candidates; a Company decision made a number of years back to save themselves a couple of bucks per annum, I suppose. I disagreed with that from the start, as do most controllers, no doubt. I probably would not have even tried had I gotten no $$$ while in training. (hello student loans )

Now for the bad, and far less empathetic part. You didn't make it and that's too bad. However, I've never seen a trainee not succeed who put every effort into learning all they could, show up prepared, and try hard as hell to bite their tongue and do exactly as the instructor says. Trainees who overtly contradict, even argue (while plugged in) with their instructors may as well just get up and leave the building and never come back. They've virtually signed their own c/t papers. I've had the pleasure of training in 3 different specialties, each incredibly humbling experiences. You may think you know it all, then you realize you're a sh!t for brains. Don't underestimate the degree to which like-ability plays in your ultimate qualification. Being a "yes" man certainly helps. Some have alluded to how none of us like to see someone get tossed out on their ear, it's the human aspect talking there. Some have also said how they like to have utmost confidence in the person they're working next to day in day out, that's the 'watch your own a$$' aspect talking there. At the end of the day, I believe people like to think that controllers are wholly qualified to do the work assigned to them. By comparison, I don't want to fly aboard a 767 with a captain that's only got 75 hours of twin turbine time, or getting a root canal done by a dentist who candidly says "Yay, finally a guinea pig to try this on" just as he freezes my gums. Enough banter.

No, you don't have a case, nor any support from members on here. It's not to say you don't have a reason to be choked about being c/t'ed. Glad to hear you've "moved on", though.

Oh, and parrot_head, I put your name in for the next course. I'll be your instructor, you'll be my beeatch. (actually, hoping you could teach me a thing or two.... you can really use 3 miles?!?)

cyeg66, aka Fabien, YYC terminal

[SkyWolfe]

I just went through the Basic Training and am currently with an OJI in my tower.

I remember hearing numerous times the course would be challenging and not everyone makes it. I don't think this was hidden at all. We even had a dinner to ensure our spouses understood the amount of work we had to do... They even advise you in the interview!!

cheers,

Wolfie

[Braun]

You guys have any OT CYEG66, lol I can be your trainee if you do!