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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:45 am 
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I have noticed quite a few posts by CPL students asking very basic questions about the CPL training requirements and regulatory questions. While I think it is important that this forum be seen as a venue where new pilots can access the knowledge of many very experienced pilots, I also think it is important that pilots working towards their CPL need to make a mental shift. In the PPL training you basically get spoon fed what you need to know, but as budding professional pilots you need to start thinking for yourself. The Chief pilot of the operation where you get your first job isn't going to want to hold your hand.

So first off I think you need to take ownership of your training. That means learning exactly what the requirements of the CPL license are and developing a plan with your instructor and FTU on what you are going to do with all of your flying from the end of the PPL to the CPL flight test.

Second I think that a basic understanding of the CARS and the regulations and structures governing commercial flight operations

For instance you should IMO know the following

What is the CARS regulatory authority you are operating under when you
-fly with a friend in a private aircraft
-rent an aircraft from an FTU
-Are receiveing dual instruction
- conducting a photographic flight
-are flying MR and MRS John Q Public from A to B in a C 172 as a charter.

Other things :
Be able to understand and provide a short explanation of (listed in no particular order): OC, AMO, MCM, Ops manual, OFP, PPC, PCC, Manifest, load control, load control document, Defect, defect rectification, AD, dispatch, self dispatch, operational control, elementary tasks, elementary task training


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:50 am 
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Big Pistons Forever wrote:
you need to start thinking for yourself.


That's a hell of a jumping off point. Perhaps a mirror-image temporary tattoo on the forehead should be mandated between 100 and 200 hours? A lot of my pet peeves are applicable to PPLs too, they're just a lot more egregious when a prospective CPL displays them because they aspire to call themselves a professional pilot. Mine appear to be mainly airmanship, so maybe my portion should be titled 'things a CPL student should be able to do'.

My additions:

-We all have access to the same rules. Don't run to your instructor with every regulatory question you have the moment it occurs to you, make a solid effort to find the answer from the appropriate source on your own. The sooner you learn to get the answer from the source, the better, as you will sooner or later discover that relying on what your buddy told you isn't going to work forever.

-Getting checked out on a new aircraft or earning a multi rating? Read that POH like your life depends on it. Learn the plane. Learn the systems. Learn to understand the aircraft. Compare the emergency procedures to the workings of the systems themselves, talk to the guys who turn the wrenches on the airplane.. The more you know about an aircraft's design, construction and inner workings, the more able you are to address abnormal or emergency situations in a manner other than 'god I hope there's a checklist for this!'. The stuff you're flying now really isn't very complicated - you should be more than capable of learning the aircraft on your own. There is more to this than learning the airspeeds.

-Diversions.. They're common sense. Identify what you need to know right now - where am I, where am I going, what heading will take me there? Mark the time, do as thorough a departure angle check as possible and figure out the rest of the details (distance, ETA, etc) once you're actually making progress towards your destination! There is absolutely no reason to be 'circling' your set heading point planning the route to the greatest level of detail possible, burning valuable time and fuel that could carry you towards a landing site... It's not that complicated. Unless you're explicitly simulating an impromptu $100 hamburger sort of situation, place a premium on being efficient about it.

-If you're flying a single engine aircraft, think and fly as though the engine could quit at any moment. Have a plan. That's your job. If you're not doing this, you're putting your life, and the life of your passengers at risk. Real emergencies don't have the common decency to happen in the nicely controlled situations some people always simulate them in - they can very possibly fail in places other than 3000' over the practice area during the day. Act accordingly.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:15 am 
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This is a fantastic thread.

I'm looking forward to the additions to this thread.

BPF, some of the things that you listed there are things that are NEVER taught and are never even talked about in a CPL course. So do you also think that as much as a CPL should know all of those, it's important that the flight schools provide this kind of information to them?

Wouldn't it be a good thing if the achievement of the CPL was more than passing a 60% minima on the written and 70% minima on the flight test? Some additions to that could be like Transport mandating the requirement for "x" amount of hours to be spent covering operational decision making, maintenance, flight in icing, and the other parts of General Knowledge that a CPL should know. And to go an extra mile - these courses being taught by professionals who have been there and done that.

Let's just say that TC is a bunch of wads and won't enforce that. Well then it should be one of the flight school's top priority to make all of those informations available to the students. Because if the FTU, the core of a students foundation, doesn't make the circle of unknowns available to the developmental student, there's no way on earth that the student can be expected to know of it. Yet he/she is expected to know it.

Your thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:30 am 
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Well seems I'm one of those you are talking about - just got the PPL a week ago and working towards my CPL. I assume the AIM is the best first place to look for a lot of this but aside from it what's a good place to go to learn all of these things? Any particular books or sites etc. you guys recommend?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:00 am 
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Loopla

Obviously you have got to demonstrate all the skills required to pass the CPL flight test and the knowledge to pass the CPL exam. Whether you wish to continue with your learning and augment the regulatory minimum is totally up to you. I would hope that if you are serious about flying as a career you would want to be better than the TC definition of good enough. But it has to start with your attitude. A CPL student should not sit back and wait for their instructor to tell them things, they should have a curious mind and everytime something comes up they do not know/understand, they should be out there researching and learning. IMO one of the most egregious areas of ignorance in new CPL's is their shocking lack of knowledge about the practical machanical workings of aircraft. I was talking to the DOM of a flight school recently and they noted that they hardly ever talk to students or have a student come over to look at an aircraft when it is apart, except for the formal ground school lesson. Even worse is the instructors, who often do not seem interested either. I have pontificated on this often and usually get eye rolls about why does it matter if you know how the XXX works, you are not designing or fixing the aircraft, just flying it. I always reply the same way. You want to really impress a small 703 operator as a new CPL hire.....know how to write good snags. But to know when something is broken you first have to know how and why it is supposed to work when it is functioning correctly, and second you have to a bit of mechanical understanding to accurately describe the symptoms and have the learned the common sense not to snag silly things.

One of the problems with flight training is most flight instructors have never flown as line pilots in 702/703/704 operations. Therefore they are in the I don't know what I don't know knowledge place. I always encourage students to talk to guys and gals who are flying for comercial operators and ask them the same question. "now that you are flying commercially, what do you wish your flight school had taught you but didn't".


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:29 am 
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172PIC wrote:
Well seems I'm one of those you are talking about - just got the PPL a week ago and working towards my CPL. I assume the AIM is the best first place to look for a lot of this but aside from it what's a good place to go to learn all of these things? Any particular books or sites etc. you guys recommend?


Check our the "columns" achives on AVWEB, there IMO is lots of very good stuff. Rod Muchado also has some good and simple aerodynamics presentations.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:36 am 
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I completely agree with you BPF. And anybody who teaches to TC's standards isn't doing his/her job accurately. I also agree with you about the lack of curiosity of todays pilot's. And I also agree with you that students shouldn't "wait" for their instructors to teach them but should have a positive attitude towards learning by themselves.

So since the instructors these days are in the "i don't know what exists" phase, could reversing the system potentially fix the problem? Whereas old, retired, and experienced pilots are instructors and 250 hour kids are the ones getting filled into the right seat of an airline or commuter for 5-7 years? Is that a better way of going?

I truly believe that the general attitude towards flying pre 704/705 is so unprorfessional, hence the students pick up the same attitude. If an overall sense of profesionalism was found in the corridors of aviation that are closer to the students level of employment, it may correctify the "negative" attitude that the student develops towards flying. Because you know this too BPF, before the airline and commuter world, the people in aviation have a big sense of "whatever" attitude. This attitude is instilled into a lot of our students, and as a result that motivation to learn, and be of the "best and brightest" isn't all of a sudden a priority for students anymore.


I agree, there always has to be some level of self discipline to achieve something; but when students are seeing nothing but greedy people in the 702/703 world who are doing nothing but complain and breaking laws, well what kind of image does that transfer to their minds? After all, if "guys" who are more experienced than me are doing this, then I should be doing it too ? right?

Awesome thread BPF, I'm enjoying this one !


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:50 am 
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I have learned more about the stuff I fly by wandering into the maintenance hangar and asking questions when one is torn to pieces than I have in every hour I've flown them combined. Thankfully the guys in there have always been more than happy to answer, explain, show me what broke, etc. I've learned a ton from them, and I'd like to think I've been able to snag things in a way that has saved them time and effort when they're addressing the problem.

Ask questions, folks! You want to do this, right? Take the initiative and learn things beyond what TC says you have to. If you're approaching getting a CPL & accompanying ratings from the angle of doing the minimum required, save yourself a lot of time and money and find something else to do.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:06 am 
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Last edited by Hedley on Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:14 pm 
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The essence of this post as I read it is that the student needs the common sense and desire to take personal responsibility for their learning.

Common sense as in realizing that your future is in fact YOUR future - you need to be the one who cares the most. Also, when walking into the hangar to talk with an AME, don't interrupt if they're obviously in middle of something. And if they seem to give you the brush off remember that they are paid by the hour to fix planes, not chat and "teach" students. You shouldn't come off like some prima-donna, entitled new-gen that feels everyone owes them and if you want to talk, so should they. What to you is valuable info is to them time-wasting idle chit chat.

And any flight school worth it's name has way more information available than most students ever want or ask about. It's not the school's responsibility to force you to learn.

Most of what you get is determined by two things -
1. your willingness to really prepare and study effectively on your own
2. your willingness to pay for the extra time you want to spend talking and learning about things that are not related to passing the tests.

It is one of the primary frustrations of flight instructors everywhere that, in general, students frequently gripe and moan about every 1/10th of an hour ground time. They will gladly waste most of a training flight by coming not prepared or lacking focus and doing sloppy work. They will also gladly stand around in the office and want to talk about many of the topics that have been mentioned above, but heaven forbid the instructor should ask for payment for this time.

Sorry for the rant, but I continue to get annoyed by the steady stream of complaining that is so frequently aimed at the flight schools doing a poor job. You as the customer need to take responsibility as a student for your learning and also as the customer who's paying - if the school you're at is doing a poor job - WALK AWAY. It's your learning and future at stake and you're paying for it. Get the best you can - don't you deserve it?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:33 am 
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I kind of agree with you. But you and I are both well aware of how there also are many schools that don't go the extra mile in trying to provide necessary information.

What it really comes down to is that the student needs to be curious, and the flight training unit needs to feed them the lunch that fills their curiosity. If the student is curious and the flight training unit does nothing but teach "the standard," well then the student is not learning up to his/her potential. Don't get me wrong, a student needs to work really hard to become good at this.

Quote:
You as the customer need to take responsibility as a student for your learning


You're completely right. There are too many wads walking around thinking that "this is it" and that they are going to be amazing pilots.

But out of curiosity, how can the curious student take responsibility for learning subject matter that they don't even know exists? Shouldn't this publication be the responsibility of the FTU? If not, then why?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:04 am 
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I have bumped this thread up as it seems to be topical


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:16 am 
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I am a foriegn national training in Canada for my CPL currently and let me tell you guys, the standards of training here are way better than back where i come from. ( hours are fudged; ground school is about clearing exams, not learning; worst of all instructors are scared of spins, stalls, spiral dives and only teach those on ground :shock: )
Its heartening to see that many of you are still not satisfied and want to improve things further.
Such passion about teaching is what produces good pilots.

I agree whole heartedly about CPL students needing to take the initiative. I see it all around me in my flight school where students are just focussed on getting their 200 hrs, CPL stamp on the shiny new booklet and then either start a job hunt or instructor rating.
Almost none bother about the details of the aircraft they fly or the need for building skill and precision as part of cpl training. Many of these people arent competent to fly a CPL syllabus cross coutry by themselves and carry along some of their friends as passengers, who are basically there as safety pilots.
Its a sad state of affairs and when such people become instructors, they ruin the next generation of pilots as well.

If I take an interest in hanging around the school's maintenance hangar or chatting with senior instructors about their experiences and problems they have faced while teaching other students, I am laughed at and called over-enthusiastic.

In my experience the best way to broaden your horizons is spend all one's time at the school and the airport and interact with instructors, experienced pilots passing through and students at nearby schools. the more people you talk to about flying, the more perspectives you get and you might learn a few things along the way too.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:57 am 
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the standards of training here are way better than back where i come from


Well, I'm glad about that, and I hope you're getting a better education here in Canada. We're trying to improve it.

FWIW: Aviation isn't just a job. It isn't just about meeting the legal minimums. With an attitude like that, someone is in for a world of hurt, sooner or later.

The real world is a real bitch. First comes the test, then comes the lesson. Your classmates may think that they can cruise through their careers on autopilot with their white shirts and gold bars and cockpit automation, but sooner or later, pilots like that come to a horrible end:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Quote:
the aircraft crashed following an aerodynamic stall caused by inconsistent airspeed sensor readings, the disengagement of the autopilot, and the pilot pulling the nose of the plane back despite stall warnings, causing a fatal loss of airspeed and a sharp descent. Additionally, reports indicated that the pilots had not received specific training in "manual airplane handling of approach to stall and stall recovery at high altitude", and that this was not a standard training requirement at the time of the accident


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:18 pm 
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stiknrudder wrote:
If I take an interest in hanging around the school's maintenance hangar or chatting with senior instructors about their experiences and problems they have faced while teaching other students, I am laughed at and called over-enthusiastic.
.


Ignore them, I can guarantee you 99% are there on daddy's money. They have never supported themselves in their life and do not realize the opportunity they are squandering.

I went to Queen's University, Winter Camp for the Over Privileged :smt040 There were a lot of the above idiots there.

LF


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:46 pm 
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I've only very recently started following this thread and I would like to add my support to it and my thanks to "Big Pistons Forever" for starting it. I wish it could be made mandatory reading for all budding CPLs - and for some who already have the license, but who still don't always understand that they need to "take ownership" of their own destiny.

I came back into aviation a few years ago, having tried and failed at retirement, and have flown 703 and 704 operations, as a line pilot and training captain. I've also been fortunate that I've operated under European as well as Canadian regulations, so hope I've gained a broader view of our industry. Finally I've been involved in the business side of a Flight Training Unit, so I'm aware of issues that affect CPL (and other flight training), as well as those of the 703/704 operator.

The only reason I share all the information above is to illustrate that I've been able to observe how CPL training is delivered, how CPL students tend to conduct themselves during that training and what is expected of the new CPL holder when that elusive first flying job comes along. Of course, there's really no such thing as the "average CPL student" or the "typical new CPL holder". We're all different.

However, I have noticed a tend, if I can call it that, in that many seem to expect that all information about the rules and regs, and the preparation to meet the standards required should be provided by the FTU or the operator. Unfortunately, real life isn't like that and it's very much up to the individual to get "up to speed" on the basics, so the company training system can concentrate on company-specific aspects and the characteristics of the specific aircraft type being flown.

Perhaps a simple way to look at it is that the new pilot, when reporting for duty on Day 1 of the new job, should be able to fly the aircraft or simulator to at least the standards required for the Multi-IFR and should also be familiar with the relevant regulations and procedures under which the flight will be conducted. That being the case, the simulator or on-wing training can concentrate on aircraft-specific aspects, rather than, for example, how to fly a hold.

So, if you're a CPL student or newbie CPL holder looking for that first job, take ownership of your own destiny, because if you don't, who will?!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:01 pm 
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The slow-but-steady degradation in the motivation of CPL students may be the result of more-dedicated individuals seeking other fields of employment.
However, the observations here are true with certain students and I have found the best way to turn them around is by setting an example for them to aspire to. Know your material totally and completely, make flying the airplane safely and accurately look like child's play, constantly challenge them with more knowledge or skill when they exhibit boredom.
There's no reason that thinking well ahead of the airplane and energy-management skills can't be introduced now, both will make the transition into their next airplane easier. Things like being in the groove on approach but fast is the same as being too high but on-speed in that both will lead to a long landing roll, etc.


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