50 hour course

[Brewhouse]

If I was instructing pilots on floats, I would spend a good portion of the training time with the aircraft loaded to max gross. An almost empty float plane is not what you will be flying for a living, load the old girl up and get her off the water under different conditions, that would be good experiance.

[buck82]

Note: some 172's have less power than 195hp, and seem to work just fine for flight training. The 85hp Champ was a blast as well. Both these aircraft are considerably less to operate and therefor train in, and damn if the techniques used to fly them don't work great on bigger float planes too.

[xsbank]

So hire a 7-hour wonder and pay 20,000 for insurance. Hire a 50-hour Hero of the North and pay 7,000. This is correct?

2 - 3 weeks after you hire the 7-hour guy he has 50+ hours - does the insurance bill now say 7,000? 7000/20 week summer = 350/week for insurance. 20,000/20 weeks X 2 = 2,000 then 350/month for insurance. For 2 grand you get a guy who you will have to check-out anyway, you can see if he has "the right stuff" for your company, you pay him dick until he gets to 50 hours then he earns full pay, right?

His 50 hours has earned you, oh, (its been a while) 25,000? He gets about 2500/month...... you're breaking my heart.

[cessnafloatflyer]

The 85hp Champ was a blast as well. Both these aircraft are considerably less to operate and therefor train in, and damn if the techniques used to fly them don't work great on bigger float planes too.

While that may be true -- the Champ is not training / working in the size of water that we go into, or the docks not to mention the Salt Water environment all together.

[mr.jinks]

yes, but wind is somewhat relative to size of aircraft

[kevinsky18]

So hire a 7-hour wonder and pay 20,000 for insurance. Hire a 50-hour Hero of the North and pay 7,000. This is correct?

2 - 3 weeks after you hire the 7-hour guy he has 50+ hours - does the insurance bill now say 7,000?

No it doesn't. You set your insurance rate at the start of the year and your stuck with it for 12 months. You don't get to flip flop back and forth. At least none of the policies I have had ever allowed me to change them. Heck the only way I could even cancel them was if I sold the plane and then you only got half your money back even if you only had the policy for a couple of weeks. But I've only had 4 or 5 planes and dealt with 4 or 5 insurance agencies over the years.

Which company are you insured with that lets you change the terms and conditions of your insurance back and forth anytime you want? Sounds like a company all of us would like to deal with.

[Big Pistons Forever]

So hire a 7-hour wonder and pay 20,000 for insurance. Hire a 50-hour Hero of the North and pay 7,000. This is correct?

2 - 3 weeks after you hire the 7-hour guy he has 50+ hours - does the insurance bill now say 7,000?

No it doesn't. You set your insurance rate at the start of the year and your stuck with it for 12 months. You don't get to flip flop back and forth. At least none of the policies I have had ever allowed me to change them. Heck the only way I could even cancel them was if I sold the plane and then you only got half your money back even if you only had the policy for a couple of weeks. But I've only had 4 or 5 planes and dealt with 4 or 5 insurance agencies over the years.

Which company are you insured with that lets you change the terms and conditions of your insurance back and forth anytime you want? Sounds like a company all of us would like to deal with.

My experience also, deals like just that don't exist.....and most disappointing to me is you go for many years with no accidents/significant damage and you still get the "standard" deal, just like "Joe's DangerAir" down the road....

[avman]

Thanks everyone

[seasonedfloatflyer]

well it's been a while since I have been on these forums but now that I am retired and sick of the wife making me go shopping, I thought I'd join again! I thought I'd chime in with my two cents as I used to own a small charter company back in the day and I agree that the 50 hour course makes a difference. I am personally in favour of the 50 hour course and would hire that guy before a rating guy but I do agree with those who said the course only good as the guy teaching them. There are some reputable schools out there with good quality instructors and I would want to know where they got their training. Past experience shows that when everybody just showed up with the bare rating, and with little time to teach them they ended up learning on the job by trial and error as already stated. There's a reason why there is an insurance requirement. A 50 hour course taught right is excellent preparation for the reality of that first commercial float flying job, although the more the better. Back to the original post, do your training on the 172 XP and get some hours on the 180 at the end, at least the check out.

[pilotidentity]

Cessnafloatflyer - I agree with you that the west coast is a great place to learn but only if you are going to get your first job out on the coast.

For a little extra in travel and time, putting in 17 hours on the west coast, 17 hours in the interior or the Yukon and 17 in Northwestern Ontario would be the way to go I think - from instructors that fly commercially in the area. 50 hours is a big investment so why not spread out your learning and increase the size of your Network. If you can't do this then at least spread it around a bit with different experienced operators in your area.

When you look back at your training when you have a few thousand hours of float time you'll realize it was one time in your life you could actually afford to rent a floatplane and go wherever you wanted.

[northernexplorer123]

Just A Question for all The employers out there. I recently ( last summer) found a guy that was willing to rent a block of time on His floatplane.... I took him up on his offer and logged 30 hours in it before the airplane needed fixing and I had to go back up north where I was working. Do You think a fifty hour course would have been more valuable? Would 30 hours of PIC float time put me on the "second Pile" of resume's??

[viccoastdog]

Just A Question for all The employers out there. I recently ( last summer) found a guy that was willing to rent a block of time on His floatplane.... I took him up on his offer and logged 30 hours in it before the airplane needed fixing and I had to go back up north where I was working. Do You think a fifty hour course would have been more valuable? Would 30 hours of PIC float time put me on the "second Pile" of resume's??

The errant apostrophe in "resumes" would relegate you to the 'other' pile

But seriously, do YOU think you learned as much flying around by yourself for 30 hours as you would if you'd picked a high time float pilot to TEACH you for FIFTY hours?

[Lost Lake]

[quote But seriously, do YOU think you learned as much flying around by yourself for 30 hours as you would if you'd picked a high time float pilot to TEACH you for FIFTY hours?[/quote]

Holly Shit, how did I make it this far without a 50 hr "bush course" .I learned on my own. If I did want a bush course, I'd rather pick a QUALIFIED BUSH PILOT versus a high timer.

I got set lose in 15 hr on wheels. 1 approach, cross winds or not, 1 airport, like it or not. Hundreds of lakes, thousands of approaches. Give it a break. I get sick of of reading that you'll never be a "bush pilot" unless you've done the "bush course".
End of rant

[viccoastdog]

I got set lose in 15 hr on wheels. 1 approach, cross winds or not, 1 airport, like it or not. Hundreds of lakes, thousands of approaches. Give it a break. I get sick of of reading that you'll never be a "bush pilot" unless you've done the "bush course".
End of rant

Okaaay....a tender nerve? I got set loose on floats with less time than a fifty hours on 'em. Who said you won't be a bush pilot unless you've done a bush course? Not me, but you quoted me as if I did!

Look, all I said to the fellow was, does he think he'd learned as much doing 30 hours in a rental floatplane as if he'd taken a 50 hour course from a high time float pilot? That's a good and valid question. I had assumed it was obvious that the 'high time' pilot in question would be high time because he'd flown a lot of floats commercially and therefore new of what he spoke and taught.

I did however found your punctuation impeccable.

[Lost Lake]

Hey Viccoast dog: I wasn't picking on you. There have been numerous posts lately about the 50 hr bush course. It didn't exist in my time. So all the "high timers" who are teaching the course made it without the course as well. You either have hands and feet or you don't. If you have the money, go for it. As an employer, I don't give a rat's ass about the course. Can you work, learn, have a good attitude, smarts and can fly with your feet on the pedals?

As fer my punctuality, the beerer I are, the smatrer, I are.

[Pilot_king!]

I haven't been participating on these forums long (2 weeks), but I know from common sense to listen to the "high time" pilots over anyone else.

And if you read or listen carefully to what all the "high time" pilots are saying on these previous posts you read that ALL of them favor the 50 hour course, but with one condition, KNOW your instructor. Ask around, gain information and ask your instructor to be, what his students are doing after they receive 50 hrs PIC.

I have signed up for 50 hour course in Nanaimo, a 15,000 hr twotter pilot is going to show me the ropes. Not only will I get operational experience but I will be giving myself a higher level of proficiency to keep me safe. None of this trial and error game.

Ill report back with my OPINION at the end of April.

Cheers!

[ETOPS]

What are you paying for the course Pilot_king? And whats the aircraft?

What about the rest of you that have recently endeavored?

[Pilot_king!]

Ya its not cheap, but I figure its way more fun thatn being an instructor and I'll hopefully cut my ramp time in half. Its 15 k. Hopefully some good job prospects aswell.

50 hrs PIC - C180.

Let us know what else you guys are finding out there.

Safe Flying,

PK

[Lost Lake]

Wow, a pilot who has 15,000 hr on a twin turbine with beta props and no water rudders is going to teach you how to fly floats. This my point. How much time does he have on small singles and how current is he. I've flown the twotter. Actually, I love it, but it is an entirely different bird than a beaver, or single piston otter or cessna.

IMHO, take some of that money, do the road trip, mention that you are so keen to fly floats that you'll pay for the course if it will get you a job. 50 hours on the coast is great if you're going to fly the coast, but it will not give you experience in the high north, or the thunderstorm prone NW Ont. Are they going to teach you when to expect carb icing, low level flying, wind sheer and reversals in thunderstorms, short circuits? The different characteristics between light and heavy, downwind and cross wind takeoffs and landings, how to read the water in the area you're flying. How to load, what a case of beer weighs, or a 5 gal can of gas, motors, etc. etc, etc. What are the effects of a 12 hr duty day for the 5th day in a row? How to fly with a hangover? When do the geese migrate through? Or a million other little things you can only learn with time.

What are you going to learn in 50 hr? You've already got a couple hundred hours, so you know how to fly.How to take off - the basics take 2hr, the rest takes a life time. Glassy water, a couple of hours. Same with landing. How to read the wind? 20 min. How to dock, sail etc. 10 hr for all the basics, a life time to perfect them. In training the average person retains less than 30%. Time is of the essence so you are going to be cramming. Just like over eating, you'll shit most of it out.

I hear everyone on here saying they've been told to take the course. I don't think I've heard from one "graduate" who has said they took it and they learned more by paying for it than they did working with the right float operation. If I see a resume with a 50 hr course on it, it just says to me that you've got more money than brains, and you think you can "buy" your way into the industry.

Flame away!

[Slats]

I have signed up for 50 hour course in Nanaimo, a 15,000 hr twotter pilot is going to show me the ropes. Not only will I get operational experience but I will be giving myself a higher level of proficiency to keep me safe. None of this trial and error game.

Personally, I don't buy into the whole 50 hour float course thing, but it's your money, fill your boots. I can say with a great degree of certainty that 50 hours or not, you won't be done with the trial and error game. You will learn far more in your first 50 hours of operational float flying on your own than you will in any 50 hour course. And you will learn by trial and error and scaring the crap out of yourself.

[mr.jinks]

Ya its not cheap, but I figure its way more fun thatn being an instructor and I'll hopefully cut my ramp time in half. Its 15 k. Hopefully some good job prospects aswell.

50 hrs PIC - C180.

Let us know what else you guys are finding out there.

Safe Flying,

PK

Instead of paying 15K to cut your ramp time in half, why not buy a twin otter PPC and get a job in St. Maarten flying for winair, into all kinds of beautiful islands and beaches, not to mention chasing all kinds of bikini clad women?????

[Pilot_king!]

His resume has C180/185/206/AZTEC/BEECH18 and international commercial operations is being brief. He has been recommened by Cheif pilots and current/former operators.

I will be trained by one of the best, and Ill be in his address book for international opportunities in China and Philippines. 500 hrs and I'm at the beach. haha...hopefully. I spend the money now and get the rewards later. Hey, don't discount the guy who is willing to get advanced training because he has money...I worked for two major aviation organziations during my diploma to get these extra opportunities, so if people want to spend their time getting to know the business by being a rampie for 2 years, go ahead.

We spend time in the airplane all over the west coast region, landing lakes, rivers, oceans, simulating commercial operations loading/unloading drums, crates.

Thanks for the advice Lost Lake, but I see it differently.

[polar one]

Pilot King...you wrote:

what all the "high time" pilots are saying on these previous posts you read that ALL of them favor the 50 hour course

I note you capitalized the "ALL". I think I qualify as both a high time pilot, ,float pilot, and ex-bush pilot.
I am not in favor of the fifty hour course....Perhaps you are understanding what you want and not what is being said.

As to the 12k twin otter pilot...With all the world wide connections. I have seen NO twin otter float planes in Fiji. None. Nada. And the companies that do have float operations , operate in a world that is far far removed from any bush flying in Canada...and, to the best of my knowledge, never even ask about a bush course. Somebody, I think is blowing smoke up your tail...

As to any perception of someone taking a bush couse being more or less hard working....they ae certainly willing to trade money for a leg up maybe.

The sense I get from your posts is you are going to do the bush course and you are going to rationalize it anyway you can.

Which is why I am trying to come across so hard nosed here...you need to really step back and look at the facts.

[Pilot_king!]

I'm not talking about Twotters in Fiji, float flying in general. I agree with your leg up comment.

[Pilot_king!]

Polar one are you against training after getting the basic multi engine IFR rating , or is it better to just jump in a complex airplane and teach your self because you are already licensed?