instructing vs. ramp/dock job

[shannon]

Another thread where some people with a shared inferiority complex start measuring dicks.

[Invertago]

Good news, Cat! One of the guys at work says he read (third hand info I know) that Virgin Galactic is starting to train "space pilots". You might have missed your shot at the Shuttle but I'll bet that's where the shuttle pilots are heading after next year-how could they resist. If Virgin responds to my resume, I'll give you a call, and put in a good word for you too.

Do they hire off the ramp?

[BigQ]

I did the ramp. Got me an F/O spot on a 703/704 op decently fast.

Do your time. Sure, you can whine, but if you mix your whining with hard work, there's no reason to not get a flying job from it. Show up to work everyday with a hard-working attitude, try to make the work conditions as favourable for you and everyone around you. If you bitch and moan about the higher-ups, do it in private. Avoid incriminating pictures on facebook. Don't spend too much on alcohol - on a ramp salary, you'll probably need to keep every penny you get to pay for loans. Most ramp jobs are in the north. Take up fishing, hunting, or camping, as a hobby/something to do on time off. Plus extra food means lower grocery bill.
Smile - or fake one - every day, telling yourself that you have a paying job and you will fly one day. People notice.

Good luck.

[GoinNowhereFast]

I worked the ramp with a 703/704/705 company. Got the shaft, felt like it was a crankshaft. Would have been nice if they used a cam shaft at least, but no. They had to be cruel.
In real terms, I got laid off early in the fall.

[AMM]

Smile - or fake one - every day...

Better yet go with the Blue Steel:

...EVERYDAY!

Just my own opinion I would take a guy out of the ramp/bush scenario over the instructor 9 times out of 10.

I'm so sick and tired of hearing these pathetic attempts at justify the bullsh!t practice of using new pilots as 'slave' laborers.
You're part of the problem shannon!

[flyinthebug]

Sorry, gotta ask, does working on a ramp give you any better idea?

1) daily exposure to aircraft you hope to fly
2) talking with Capts & FO`s daily about what they do.
3) getting the "swamper" seat when its a deadhead or freight run
4) daily exposure to aircraft you hope to fly
5) pulling panels and assisting an AME with a 50 hour inspection?.. priceless
6) did i mention daily exposure to aircraft you hope to fly?
7) when loading an aircraft you hope to fly, who would be more able to discuss being overweight? or loaded improperly?..an instructor thats only ever seen pics of a HS748.. or someone whos loaded it 274 times?

I could go on and on and on and list the MANY benefits of working the ramp/dock vs instructing. It is the BEST experience you will get, and when your turn comes to fly, you wont be a "deer in the headlights".. You`ll have a pretty good handle on whats what.

Doc, im surprised at your passion on this topic?. I always believed that you and I were of the same mindset on this issue? Do you REALLY believe what your saying? You cannot sit there and tell me you`d rather have an FO with 1000 hours in the circuit vs a guy with 300 hours on floats?.. Give yer head a shake my friend, you are dead wrong on this one! No wonder Wasaya got rid of you! LMAO! Sorry hadda say it!

[flyinthebug]

Smile - or fake one - every day...

Better yet go with the Blue Steel:

...EVERYDAY!

Just my own opinion I would take a guy out of the ramp/bush scenario over the instructor 9 times out of 10.

I'm so sick and tired of hearing these pathetic attempts at justify the bullsh!t practice of using new pilots as 'slave' laborers.
You're part of the problem shannon!

Talk to ANY of the rampies that worked for me.. I assure you they dont share the same ideals as you. Its NOT slave labour, its experience! Do doctors walk right into the operating room after graduating? NO, they wash the scalpels that REAL doctors use. Do even Class A mechanics start working on cadillacs? Nope, they wash the parts for the REAL mechanics for up to 4 years before they actually do it themselves. Thats just a fact. Once you have a CPL, you have obtained a licence to learn.. You are NOT . Yeager and you cannot demand his wages right out of the gate. The biggest problem with today`s youth is LACK of patience. The bottom line is, work hard whether as an instructor OR rampie and good things will happen for you. I get tired of the other side of this coin where all operators that hire rampies are looking for slave labour. Yes sadly, some ops do take advantage of thier rampies BUT I wasnt one of them. There are other GOOD ops out there that will reward hard work and dedication. I always did and theres others that do too.

My 2 cents fly safe all.

[Stochey]

2 Years of ramp: 500 hours TT ?
2 Years of instructing: 1500 hours TT ?

When both will apply for there next jobs on 703-704 the insurance price between both could make an empoyer change idea even if one has better experience on ramps I still thinks insurance price could make the employer take instructing guys.

[Highflyinpilot]

I would prsonally take the instructing route, I have known many people who only instructed and are now flying airlines. So this leads to tell me that If i chose the instruting route I would eventually move on to something better, its all a matter of time, And on the plus side i got to fly while waiting for a better position.

It is funny how some people say that you will have to scrub toilets to pay your dues, to that i say Bullsh%t. You became a pilot to be a pilot, If you wanted to scrub toilets you would have become a janitor(which there is nothing wrong with that.) While i took my apprentiship in my chosen trade, I have never NEVER had to clean a shitter, you dont learn antyhing in your chosen field by cleaning a shitter, they pay people decent money to do that, What is the matter with the aviation industry?

[flyinthebug]

I would prsonally take the instructing route, I have known many people who only instructed and are now flying airlines. So this leads to tell me that If i chose the instruting route I would eventually move on to something better, its all a matter of time, And on the plus side i got to fly while waiting for a better position.

It is funny how some people say that you will have to scrub toilets to pay your dues, to that i say Bullsh%t. You became a pilot to be a pilot, If you wanted to scrub toilets you would have become a janitor(which there is nothing wrong with that.) While i took my apprentiship in my chosen trade, I have never NEVER had to clean a shitter, you dont learn antyhing in your chosen field by cleaning a shitter, they pay people decent money to do that, What is the matter with the aviation industry?

The ignornace grows on this site daily it seems! I never ever asked one of my ground crew to clean toilets. We hired a janitorial company to clean our s*it. Im sorry to hear you frown on hard work and just reward. Some people (like you) believe life owes you a living because you have 200/500/2500/who cares how many hours and a CPL?.. Its people like YOU that cause people like me to lose sleep. Enjoy your chosen route to the majors. I never said instructing was a bad route.. I only said that most tier 3`s prefer some time in the bush...making your own decisions, in real world flying. If you didnt have to load a 748 or a DHC2/3...then I can honestly say that you missed out on some great flying and great people. Im sure you met many good ppl along the way as well.. But to dismiss the bush/ramp/dock as unnecessary grunt work for a bunch of tyranic owners is simple Bullsh*t and even you know that.

And one final FYI for the insurance expert above .. You would be surprised at how valuable 300 hours on floats is to an insurance company. It was easier for me to get affordable insurance on our A100 F/O`s then our PA34..because we instructed on it. Imagine that. And cheaper to insure a 250 hour F/O on the PA31 then our CFI who had 2700 hours and 400 MPIC..because it was instructing. Thats just fact.

Fly safe all.

PS..pulling panels on a C310 is not equal to cleaning toilets.
Spending an 8 hour shift working along side an AME is not cleaning toilets.
Doing a 50 hour inspection on a pa31-350 is not cleaning toilets.. Are you starting to understand my theme here?













.......

[Doc]

FTB, I've seen some (quite a few, actually) ramp rats treated like crap. I've flown with (and so have you) ramp rats AND instructor types who were complete A-holes. I've had crew guys who are now very successful captains, one the assistant chief pilot with the company who shall not be named. The ramp worked out for these guys. The instructor route works for many as well. You might have to teach them common sense from time to time, but I've yet to have had to teach one to fly.
Cheers mate.

[Highflyinpilot]

Flyinthebug,

"Some people (like you) believe life owes you a living because you have 200/500/2500/who cares how many hours and a CPL?."

I only have about 300 hours and a CPL, trust me I am not gloting about that. Life doesnt owe me nothing, I go get what i want. If I had chosen a career in janitorial services, I would expect to clean a toilet, If i had chosen a career in being a mechanic, i would expect to get greasy and dirty from performing an oil change, If i had chosen a career in clerical work i would expect to stand in front of a computer and get calices on my fingers from typing and writing all day, had i chosen to be a pilot i would expect to fly.

I never stated that YOU said you got your ground crew to clean a shitter. But i have heard it before on these boards.


Oh ya, and about that hard work comment, come tell me that when im sitting on a beam 14 stories high trying to weld the joint together so the instalatioon crew can install a 30000 lb piece of concrete hollowcore on the beams. I got into that field because i expect to erect buildings, not to clean a shitter.


P.S and yes, I did say erect

[flyinthebug]

Doc.. Every word you speak is the truth. I readily admit that there are more then one way to obtain a persons dreams. I also acknowledge (Highflyinpilot) that there are some operators that take advantage of young, new pilots. Those are the ones that give a bad name to the words "ramp" or "ground crew". Im only hoping to stress to you that some of the doors you *may* end up knocking on in your career, are not all out to abuse you and make you clean their shi**ers. I know my young crews learned alot from working with the AME`s and NO ONE ever spent more then 6 months on the ground before they were PCC`d on the PA31 or even PPC`d on the PA34 or both. If a guy/gal came to work with the right attitude and gave me their best.. I always rewarded that, whether I even liked the person or not. If they worked hard for me, they saw an airplane in 6 months or less in most cases.

Your job sounds like one I wouldnt want. Its not easy to read someone via text but you came across rather certain that all ops were out to abuse and use young pilots starting out. I wish you the best of luck via the route you choose in this industry. As doc pointed out, ive flown with BOTH and BOTH have good and bad. I hope that your mind will open enough to at least show some respect to those that choose the bush path and worked damn hard to be in the seat their in now at AC WJ or elsewhere.

Fly safe all.

[Highflyinpilot]

That is the problem with forum boards, you can never really get a feeling for how the other person is feeling.

I should clarify a bit here, When i first started out in the ironworkers field, I was not at the top of the game, I had to do bitch work too, but bitch work in this field is slinging beams for the cranes, gathering a bucket of bolts, etc. etc. just as in aviation bitch work might be loading the aircraft, refueling, de icing. But it is all related to flying, as in me slinging a beam is related to erecting the building. But i read a comment on here from another user, heck it might have been you, Im not really sure who wrote it and i dont really care, but it said something like" i had to work the ramp, clean a few toilets"(something like that anyways, i dont feel like going back to find the exact wording) Now i must say why did this individual have to clean toilets to get flying??. That is what bothers me, that is not aviation related. Do we expect the janitor to load the bags on the aircraft, or refuel the aircraft?


P.S Im not bringing down the janitorial people out there, nothing worng with that field at all, in fact I know a few and they get paid very very well for it.


P.S.S flyinthebug, If you reward for hard work than I applaud you, If you send your ramp workers to help the AME than i also applaud you, heck I'd work for anyone that is willing to reward me for my hard work, but It has ti be related to what i want to do in life, thats why we all go to school for a certain qualifictaion.


P.S.S.S Also, after all this bickering, to get back on topic, i would still go the instructing route, but it is all in what you want, you will get to where you want to go either way, that is my take on it.(that is if you are a good hard worker)

[mattedfred]

save your money and get a float rating and work the dock if you can't find a flying job

i chose this route for the following reasons:

i always wanted to fly floats and i miss it dearly
i did not want to instruct
i knew i would not be a good instructor
i could not afford an instructor rating
i knew i would have to move up north or out west (i'm from southern ontario) to get a flying job and i thought it would be easier to do so for my first job rather than after i had been instructing at a southern ontario based FTU for any period of time
at the time i graduated from college i knew that there were many operators that did in fact frown upon instructor time

i missed my graduation ceremony in may as i had already started working, then got laid off for the season mid september. i was right seat on a metro 2 months later. i did my left seat ride 12 months after that. i completed my line check in the left seat 6 months after that.

[Cat Driver]

What types of flying jobs are the most satisfying and also pay well?

I can only give an opinion from my own experiences in aviation which gave me a fairly broad range of flying a lot of stuff from biplanes to fly by wire and both fixed wing and rotary wing.

So first rotary wing is so far ahead of fixed wing as far as satisfying goes there is just no comparison.

Now to different types of flying in order of their job satisfaction scale from best to worst.

( 1 ) Flying for the movie and T.V. industry.

(2 ) Crop dusting ( Aerial Application ) best was helicopter next fixed wing.

( 3 ) Training on rebuilding and ferrying Antique aircraft.

( 4 ) Bush flying.

( 5 ) Corporate flying.

( 6 ) Airline flying.

( 7 ) Currier flying and charter on light twins.

( 8 ) Flying in the air show circuit.

The above basically sums up the different levels of job satisfaction that I had in my career.

What did I detest most about the business of flying????

International commuting to the point I would almost rather go to jail that have to endure the process of airline travel.

There you go kids that was my experience and job satisfaction in order.