Well done WestJet!

[Flying Nutcracker]

The beauty of controlled rest on the flight deck! The beauty of being "fit to fly"! 17 hours can be a looong day, especially with multiple sectors, but with a roundtrip only, there really is no added stress or fatigue to extending your day by a couple of hours. This is why it is so important to get a good nights sleep and show up to work in a rested state. Extending your day on day 5 of a 5 day pairing that has had a lot of multiple sectors, a lot of weather issues, and a few long days, can be fatiguing and probably would prompt one, if not all of the crew, to trump with the fatigue card! And there really is no shame in throwing in the towel, regardless of where you are and how many are affected. The safest bet is a conservative yet honest assessment of the state of the crew. You cannot expect a tired crew to accept an extension if they are not fit to fly...

It is true... the hardest thing can be knowing when to say "no"!

[Beacon]

Here is another TC view....Maybe TC could publish something that would clear this topic up once and for all.

From: Rehm, Danielle
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:13 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Duty Times - Unforeseen Circumstances

Hi ,

If the pilot or the air operator is aware, prior to take-off, that a flight will put the crew over the max allowable duty day, it cannot be said to be unforeseen. As mentioned in my earlier email, there are very few situations that qualify as unforeseen circumstances - in any case it is always something that happens after the flight has departed. Delays due to deicing, maintenance etc, do not constitute unforeseen circumstances. The intent behind the exception to the regulations is to allow a crew to continue to destination in the event that something occurs enroute that could not have reasonably been foreseen.

As PIC, when you apply power for take-off, you must be reasonably certain that you will land within your legal duty day.
If you have other questions regarding duty times, crew scheduling etc, I suggest you contact the Principal Operations inspector for your company - you are also welcome to call me at any time to discuss..

Regards,

Danielle Rehm
Civil Aviation Inspector Commercial and Business Aviation
(604) 666-9773

[Tube Driver]

You guys might all be missing something here. The West Jet crew and dispatch all new that there was no way that they could in fact reach destination on the return leg and stay within duty time. Someone should check to see what the company/crew had as a filed destination on the return. Was it the actual destination or another one which may have allowed them to complete the flight within the duty time allowed. When the in flight "medical" emergency arose this would allow them to divert to a suitable destination under the circumstances which may have ended up being the original destination. Thus they are now allowed to play the "unforseen" card and can legally break their duty day. This allows them to get the plane home "clean" and saves the company a pile of money not to mention face. By announcing over the PA that they have a medical situation they have now bought themselves a plane load of witnesses and credibility. Funny how the medical ended up being nothing though.

I am not saying this is what did happen, but I have seen lesser companies do worse. Just a thought.

[Invertago]

Meh, I can do a 16hour duty day in my sleep!

[J31]

It would be highly unlikely the flight would be cancelled in a southern destination due to crew rest issues. The flight would most likely dispatch within the duty day regulations to an airport closer to the destination. Then a “rescue flight/crew” would carry on to the original destination.

[FlowPack]

Couldn't they just go as WJA ### 'medevac' and voila, no paperwork...

I do have a real question about split duty days. Are you allowed to extend because of unforeseen delays (ones you already knew about at the START of your split, but not at the beginning of your actual duty day)? According to Donald Sherritt (first TC email posted), you could still blast off and push to an 18 hour day.

The question that follows is - In anticipation or in advance of what? At what point does an unforeseen circumstance become foreseen? Transport Canada has chosen the beginning of the flight crew's duty day as the reference point for determining if a circumstance was unforeseen.

If the air operator or flight crew member is aware of the circumstance before the flight duty period begins, then it is not an unforeseen operational circumstance - the maximum flight time or flight duty time cannot be exceeded.

If the air operator or flight crew member is not aware of the circumstance before the flight duty period begins, then it is an unforeseen operational circumstance - the maximum flight duty time can be extended in accordance with CAR 700.17.

What is an "unforeseen operational circumstance"?

A split wouldn't be considered two duty days, or it would cause a whole host of other problems..

[Tube Driver]

Like I said in my earlier post, what was the filed destination? where can someone find this?

[double-j]

Your guys conspiracy theories do make me laugh!

jj

[Rotten Apple #1]

No doubt the pilots would have used the Fatigue Matrix to determine their fitness to fly. No story here.

[Mustard]

Busted. We have duty days for a reason.

[mattedfred]

No doubt the pilots would have used the Fatigue Matrix to determine their fitness to fly. No story here.

what is a fatigue matrix and how does it work?

[loopa]

Here is another TC view....Maybe TC could publish something that would clear this topic up once and for all.

From: Rehm, Danielle
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:13 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Duty Times - Unforeseen Circumstances

Hi ,

If the pilot or the air operator is aware, prior to take-off, that a flight will put the crew over the max allowable duty day, it cannot be said to be unforeseen. As mentioned in my earlier email, there are very few situations that qualify as unforeseen circumstances - in any case it is always something that happens after the flight has departed. Delays due to deicing, maintenance etc, do not constitute unforeseen circumstances. The intent behind the exception to the regulations is to allow a crew to continue to destination in the event that something occurs enroute that could not have reasonably been foreseen.

As PIC, when you apply power for take-off, you must be reasonably certain that you will land within your legal duty day.
If you have other questions regarding duty times, crew scheduling etc, I suggest you contact the Principal Operations inspector for your company - you are also welcome to call me at any time to discuss..

Regards,

Danielle Rehm
Civil Aviation Inspector Commercial and Business Aviation
(604) 666-9773

Ok, so I'm going to throw the ball a different way. I may be wrong.

So TC considers it to be illegal to depart if the pilot knows that they're going to be surpassing the duty times. Let's go back to YVR, where the guys departed. This is the first flight of the day for this crew. When they depart, they know that they're going to be okay for duty times as it's a round robin flight for a total of maybe 11 hours. At this point, there is no mention of having a "sick" passenger on board. So as a result, if they end up with a medical emergency that requires a diversion, wouldn't this be seen as unforeseen? Cause it is a different story if the crew knew they had a sick passenger while departing YVR. But since they didn't, then having a medical emergency really is out of the company's control and should be seen as unforeseen.

So if suddenly having a medical emergency is seen as unforeseen, then this entire round robin flight that the crew was scheduled to do has now been delayed for unforeseen circumstances. With that in mind, wouldn't the 4 hour delay at the diverted airport also be seen as unforeseen? Wouldn't that 4 hour delay added to the overall round robin be seen as unforeseen?

Cause if all of those are viewed as unforeseen as a result of unforeseen as a result of unforeseen, then as long as they make it back and check out from their duty times within 17 hours, and receive their extended 6 hours of uninterrupted rest... this would all be legal...

What might be considered illegal is the following. I was on a KLM flight, shortly departing EHAM, as we were passing FL120, the flight attendants go on the PA and ask for a doctor. Remember, our foreseen flight was intended to be 9 hours and 45 minutes. At 20 minuets into the flight, we need a doctor. What was a question to me was that we ended up continuing to Vancouver and midway over greenland, we had to divert to Keflavik. We were delayed in Keflavik for 5 hours because the passenger refused to get off the plane as they were worried about their foreign visa requirements. KLM knew that this passenger could not land anywhere else but Canada or Netherlands because at check in, her international documents must of been verified. Still, KLM decided to continue to Vancouver and being forced to divert to Keflavik. They were past the 14 hour duty requirement regulation for a 9.8 block flight time.

I don't know of the CAA/JAA regulations, but under Canadian regulations, wouldn't continuing with a sick passenger who KLM is aware of not having proper international documents for a diversion been considered a foreseen circumstance? Replace KLM with ACA... would ACA get crap for it if such a thing was done by a carrier under Canadian Jurisdiction?

Your thoughts?

[planemikey]

Either way you cut it , if nothing happens when you know you will go over your your duty limit when leaing to your destination your a hero , your boss says way to go , TC boyz wink and say tisk tisk . But in the same circumstances , when crap does hit the Turbo Fan, ALL and I mean ALL frends disappear. The Captain knows this only too well. Never push the limits is the best practise and you'll hae friends too!

[Randleman]

Okay people, Puerto Vallarta is NOT a westjet base!!
For goodness sake, these pilots know what they are doing.

[double-j]

Randleman, please do not argue with the omnipotent posters on this forum, because they are to school you on their navajo, kingair, blah, blah, experience and they know better than the operator sop's.

j

[mattedfred]

Okay people, Puerto Vallarta is NOT a westjet base!!
For goodness sake, these pilots know what they are doing.

i didn't realize that one could only duty out at a location that one's own airline has a base

perhpas i was wrong the last time i dutied out in YXU which is not a base for my employer?

[Doc]

Okay people, Puerto Vallarta is NOT a westjet base!!
For goodness sake, these pilots know what they are doing.

Got to agree with you on that comment. Can't believe this just keeps going on and on.

[Jastapilot]

Explanations blah blah blah. I could give a crap what one of Transport's minions "THINKS" what the wording of the CARS is supposed to mean. The fact is it's written in such a way that it's difficult to interpret because of it's ambiguity. To top it all off, I'm sure it's no accident that it's so vague.

Fact: there is nothing about being at a company base in the limits. Nothing about prior to a flight

cut'n paste:
Unforeseen Operational Circumstances

604.30 Flight duty time may be extended beyond the maximum flight duty times referred to in subsections 604.27(1) and 604.28(1) if

(a) the pilot-in-command, after consultation with the other flight crew members, considers it safe to do so;

(b) the flight duty time is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances; and

(c) the private operator and the pilot-in-command comply with the Private Operator Passenger Transportation Standards.

and:
624.30 Unforeseen Operational Circumstances

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) Flight duty time may be extended by up to 3 consecutive hours provided that:

(a) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by an amount at least equal to the extension to the flight duty time;

(b) the pilot-in-command shall notify the air operator, in accordance with procedures outlined in the company operations manual, of the length of and the reason for the extension; and

(c) the air operator shall retain the notifications until the completion of the next Department of Transport audit.

(2) Flights shall be planned to be completed within the maximum flight duty time taking into account the time necessary for pre-flight and post-flight duties, the flight or series of flights, forecast weather, turn-around times and the nature of the operation.


and:

"unforeseen operational circumstance" - means an event, such as unforecast adverse weather, or an equipment malfunction or air traffic control delay, that is beyond the control of an air operator or private operator; (circonstance opérationnelle imprévue)


Bottom line, unless it says different somewhere else in the CARS, I don't see anything regarding any of the wishful thinking that I see in this thread.

Some of us operate in a manner that holds 'completing the mission' as the objective of the CARs; others use it as an excuse not to fly. The above quote directly from CARs is the only rule I have to determine whether to extend my duty day, and that's it. Yes, it needs to be better written, but it won't ever be. If you're not fit to fly, don't fly. If 'something' occurs during your duty day that wasn't part of the plan, then as far as I'm concerned, you can extend.

[Doc]

perhpas i was wrong the last time i dutied out in YXU which is not a base for my employer?

You called it a day in London? What's that, 40 minutes from Toronto? I'm not in any way saying you were wrong. You were totally correct to do so, if the clock called for it, but I'll bet you got some heat over it? Some calls are harder to make than others. But, I guess, if you carried on, only to skid off the end of the runway.....
At least London has a Keg. I'd have a hard time calling it a day in a town without a Keg....

[Randleman]

Okay people, Puerto Vallarta is NOT a westjet base!!
For goodness sake, these pilots know what they are doing.

i didn't realize that one could only duty out at a location that one's own airline has a base

perhpas i was wrong the last time i dutied out in YXU which is not a base for my employer?

Well that's a discussion for another thread. It's not pointless, but it's WAYYY off topic for this thread.