Honest Information Please..

[troyjptempst]

Hi all,

A new poster here!

I am considering moving in with a friend in Vancounver having just finished my JAR PPL in the UK. I am considering paying for a 50 hours Professional Bush + CPL hour build. Once completed I will have a canadian CPL and SE Float rating.

What are the job prospects out there for 200HR TT/ 80 HR SE Float rating + CPL?

Also what does the average salary equate to for a newly qualified single engine float pilot. I would be happy to work anywhere in Canada.



thanks

[Rowdy]

Almost unhireable as a pilot with those times/qualifications. The sad truth is, the industry is at a low point and there arent a lot of jobs for low time and underqualified pilots. Especially with a flood of mid to higher timed guys around. There are a ton of threads on the float/bush courses and a ton of finding that elusive first job. Salary for a dockhand/ramp guy is somewhere in the 2k/month range. The float flying season throughout the rest of canada however can be as short as 2 or 3 months, but averages at around 4 or 5. Its a tough start for sure..


But, if you find a decent spot and do your research on which companies may actually promote you off the ramp or dock or whatever else into a flying seat and are willing to buck through it all.. It can be a lot of fun. Hopefully I didnt get suckered in by someone trolling the waters.

[thecaptain]

Hi all,

A new poster here!

I am considering moving in with a friend in Vancounver having just finished my JAR PPL in the UK. I am considering paying for a 50 hours Professional Bush + CPL hour build. Once completed I will have a canadian CPL and SE Float rating.

What are the job prospects out there for 200HR TT/ 80 HR SE Float rating + CPL?

Also what does the average salary equate to for a newly qualified single engine float pilot. I would be happy to work anywhere in Canada.



thanks

I'm no expert when it comes to float operator requirements... but in general in this country with that time... Very few prospects. Not to say it can't be done, but you'll be spending a long time working on a dock/ramp before seeing the interior of a plane.. while it's in the air anyway.

There's a big surplus of pilots right now, many with thousands of hours struggling to get work. You can save your money, OR you can still make the trip, get to know some folks and start getting your foot in the door. Just as long as you know it's a long road from finishing your CPL+Floats to getting your first gig. Hope you like Kraft Dinner

[troyjptempst]

Obviously being in another part of the world im pretty uncertain as to what you mean by ramp guys?

You mean just working for an airline in a non-flying capacity?

If it pays $2000 a month. Id do it!

Is it a case of just e-mailing them, that would be great. I could just do my hour building on the weekend!

[thecaptain]

Obviously being in another part of the world im pretty uncertain as to what you mean by ramp guys?

You mean just working for an airline in a non-flying capacity?

Translated RAMP means throwing freight (loading planes, unloading, fuelling, cleaning planes, towing them, everything but flying them), and other tasks on the ground. It's how most folks with lower time get started. It's long days (think 12-14 hours) and manual labour. Lots and lots of labour. It's not an easy road, and not one that everyone is successful with.

For what you want to do, emailing won't cut it. Showing up and knocking on doors is the best and often only approach, and even then there is no guarantee that you'll get a job. No offence intended here, but remember there are a thousand locals that will want the same job you do. Why hire a guy from another country through email, when a desperate local shows up at the door step ready to get working right away? As I said, no offence intended. As for time building on the weekends.... you'll be working weekends.

On the upside, the friendships you form are great and the beer never stops flowing.

[troyjptempst]

I appreciate it!

Because im also willing to pay them money to train me if I go somewhere where they train and fly charters!!

Whats the landplane and integrated ATPL chances of work like out in canada?

[TeePeeCreeper]

Obviously being in another part of the world im pretty uncertain as to what you mean by ramp guys?

You mean just working for an airline in a non-flying capacity?

If it pays $2000 a month. Id do it!

Is it a case of just e-mailing them, that would be great. I could just do my hour building on the weekend!

So let's get this right.... You'd be willing to work for 1000£ a month to work 60 hour work weeks while living it up in Vancouver???

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and say that you are unwilling to spend the 20,000 Euros on a A320/737 type rating. (Good on you mate)
That said, why the hell would you be willing to load/fuel/dig shitters/ etc.. etc... for FAR... FAR less than what my in-laws pay their gardener to upkeep their estate in the midlands?

[thecaptain]

Whats the landplane and integrated ATPL chances of work like out in canada?

The same as the CPL+SE float chances. I'm not trying to discourage you here but there are plenty of folks with 3000+ with a ATPL trying to find a job right now (layoffs, economy, whatever you want to blame it on). Phones aren't exactly ringing off the hook in Canada right now.

Anyway, it's great and all that you are so willing to do and "spend" what it takes, but a word to the wise. Research your decision very carefully before making a move here. I have made a few friends from overseas that tried getting into the industry here in Canada and they were met with a great deal of disappointment. That was when things weren't so bad.

"The grass is always greener on the other side.." the grass here is MANY shades away from green right now.

Good luck.

[troyjptempst]

No im not willing to spend.

I will go via the modular route and I will but a budget of $20000CAD max.

I dont want to fly airlines. I want to do real flying. Learn my trade at each license level. Challenging flying. See the world. Fight fires. Save people.

Once i renumerate I can then add ME to my ratings brunch out and work towards an IR.

Fly SE floats/ ME floats / Firebomber / King Air/ Dc4 /6 and maybe an L300 Herc. I feel its important to grind out at least 500 hours on each type as you build your licenses.

Opinions?

[Lost Lake]

I want to say so much, but I'll just shut up. Come on over, buy some aiviator glasses and throw the rose coloured ones out. Good Luck!

[Rowdy]

20k for additional training on top of whatever you've already spent on your euro licences hey? wow things must be rough in europe if you're considering this. Also if you dont have a canadian work permit/visa/passport, you'll be out of luck. None of the canadian aviation companies will sponsor you if you're solely a low time pilot.

Now what do you consider real flying? Each different avenue has its challenges. You will also need to do a fair more than 500hrs on each of those types to move upward. You'll be lucky in your first two years of single enginge floats to do more than 200hrs a year, assuming you dont spend too long on the dock.. and you wont get into a ME float machine without at least 1500hrs PIC. Unless you decide to sit right seat in a twin otter somewhere, and those spots usually go to guys who've spent time with that company on the dock (it's entry level). The chances of getting into a tanker (aerial fire fighting) with low time are slim to nil. From what I know you're going to need a pile of time 3-4k in a mix of everything to get close to that goal. There also arent many if any DC4's or 6's being operated. I think you can count the total on one hand. Conair and Buffalo Airways and thats it!!. There is also on one company that flies the Herc and again, you'll need a pile of time to get on there.

the standard progression in the float world is this dock/ramp- C180 or right seat twin otter - Beaver - Norseman/Otter/Be18/Caravan - Twin Otter captain - Assuming all goes well.

Otherwise.. you could do the instructing bit for a while then get right seat in a twin, say a navajo or a king air, a year or more then around the 2500hr mark you can upgrade into the left seat and go onward from there.

All in all, its gonna take you say 5 or 6 years to be marketable, assuming there isnt a huge blowout in the economy, some natural disaster or another 9/11 type event.

None of the entry level jobs will be anywhere near a big city or anyplace you'd reasonably want to live in if you've come from a city. It'll all be small northern communities for the most part with few amenities.

Think very wisely and do a lot of research on where you want to end up, how long you're willing to take and for who and where you're looking to fly. Its a great big country, with a lot of opportunities, but also a lot of hardship. Best of luck.

[troyjptempst]

Hey please say all as opposed to shutting up!

No outlay as of yet on European licenses. I will out lat $9000 on a PPL and then I would cap my Canada Budget at $18000!

No more ill be spent until im renumerating. Permits and Visa are cool in theory as i will have a sponsor.

Im no fussed where I live. Ill go anywhere. Im happy as long as there is a warm bed + hot shower every day.

Im fully aware about the DC4/6 and herc. I checked out First Airs requirements and they are 3000 TT with 2000 ME for F/O min.

Im thinking around thr 5/6 years to Big Turboprop F/O + decent salary.

My pal is only on his 3rd Yr of flying and is 1000 hours A320 family rate at Britis Airways!!

haha

alrit for sum!

[North Shore]

Firebomber

At my place of employment, it's a minimum of 2500tt, ATPL and 500 floats...most guys are double that by the time the phone rings. And, I flew under 50 hours last season (granted, it was a slow year, but even if it was busy, you'd be lucky to triple that), as did many of my co-workers, so we are a career goal, not a stepping stone.

Don't mean to rain on your parade, sorry.

That being said, if you are willing to work hard, and move out of Vancouver, then there is some hope. As others have said, though, you will be competing with home-grown talent, so your road could be tougher than others'.

Good Luck.

[troyjptempst]

Lost why dont you say what you where thinking!

Hopefully there will be an upturn soon so things will pick up again.

In respect of moving out of Vancouver, that is what I want to do. The further north the better. Artic + NWT etc.

The advice im getting is dont bother aspiring to fly bush or artic in Canada.!

[Rowdy]

The advice is not like that at all. Its being realistic. This is not some dreamy or cushy industry. Its also a giant pain in the ass to get a start in.

The bare min. to get on the west coast on floats is close to 1k PIC on floats and 1500TT. Some have gotten on with less time, but its a very rare occurence when the industry is doing very well.

With the terrible american economy and it closely echoing in canada.. The upswing isnt going to be for a while. So you may get lucky if you start training now and catch the upswing 3 or 4 years from now.

[Lost Lake]

Hey guys, read this guys post's. I think I smell a troll. Either that or a total wet dreamer! Like I said before, don't listen to us, grab those aviators and "come on down"

[troyjptempst]

Mate I am not a troll!

Im asking Canadians for advice on their patch!

I set the post up to see what feedback I could get from those with experience of the Float/Bush set up. No aviators. No wetness.

Just a willingness to grind it out IF i choose to go down this route. Its only a 30 percent chance at the moment.

I was under the impression that IF in the future i find myself with a canadian CPL and Float rating 205HR TT with at least 100 of that PIC on C180 Floats, then IF i hussled and persisted and went way up north i may well improve my chances of employment to above 51 percent in favour! a gambling man. I would always makes plays with anything that is in my favour. Although Im sceptical as to whether or not that is the case now.

Ive spent hours trawling online for float operators, all the way down to single operation fishing lodges in NWT and YUKON with a view to getting my head around how the industry works out there. Im tempted to Call or email west coast, harbour air et al pilots from here in the UK just to ask how THEY got into it etc and any advice if they can, give to me.

I could go over in person to chat to some folk as my pal lives out there and i hear the pokers not bad down at the waterside casinos.

Its a B*****t industry at the mo. The UK is drastically overpriced especially flight training (Unleaded car fuel stands at equivalent $1.80CAD per litre today for example).Plus its all land based flying. Im into Manual Nav/DR/3 point Visual. So id like to try flying where i would do that every day.

Thanks for the advice. It appreciate it.

[Rowdy]

I was under the impression that IF in the future i find myself with a canadian CPL and Float rating 205HR TT with at least 100 of that PIC on C180 Floats, then IF i hussled and persisted and went way up north i may well improve my chances of employment to above 51 percent in favour!

Ive spent hours trawling online for float operators, all the way down to single operation fishing lodges in NWT and YUKON with a view to getting my head around how the industry works out there. Im tempted to Call or email west coast, harbour air et al pilots from here in the UK just to ask how THEY got into it etc and any advice if they can, give to me.

I could go over in person to chat to some folk as my pal lives out there and i hear the pokers not bad down at the waterside casinos.

There isnt a lot going on WAY up north.. most of the float ops are going to be found closer to the border.. where countless fishermen/hunters come for a vacation and to play. Northwestern Ontario, Manitoba and a bit in saskatchewan. This is where the bulk of the float/bush pilots get their start. The few that are in the yukon want a big whack of time as you'll be flying around some fairly hostile mountains/weather. Same goes for BC.

As for calling the busy scheduled operators such as west coast, harbour, seair etc, thats probably not going to get you very far nor even talking to one of the pilots. Ask some friends, ask some of the folk on here some more specific questions and you'll likely get some good answers.. and some annoying retarded comments too.

205Hrs TT with 100 of it on floats still wont get you very far. Operators want to see operational experience, actually out there flying on the line for a season or two or three. Hopefully your good nature, a solid character reference and someone willing to take a gamble on employing you will work out. Again, there are guys out there this season with 1000hrs with most of it on floats looking at the entry level jobs in 180's and 185's this year... So it is a gamble

Come west to vancouver, shoot me a pm if you do. As for the poker, I wouldnt know much about it.

[Lost Lake]

Hey Rowdy, you're in flying and you don't gamble?

Any prospects yet?

[troyjptempst]

I am presuming that floats are the best way to build hour time???

Hows the SE landplane flying game? Pretty much the same?

If i came out there my overall ambition would be too move further north at eevery point. The closer to the artic the better.

That is what is appealing. Experience pays it seems. Just like anywhere I guess.

Are most thousands of hour guys looking as far north as the artic North Yukon/Alaska/North NWT/Nunavut and Greenland?

Theres a few jobs up that way as I checked out the operators!

[ditar]

If i came out there my overall ambition would be too move further north at every point.

Funny, my goal has been the exact opposite.

[troyjptempst]

*excuse the grammar and spelling.

[Lost Lake]

Ditto Ditar. Actually, I love flying the high arctic (north of 60) on floats. Unfortunately, too short a season which = less $. Anyway our poster has been reading too many glossy bush flying magazines. I think that if he could start off his career in moosonee, between the airborn and land borne pests (read into it what you like) he will be glad to be on the first plane back to good ole jolly ole.