Cargo Aircraft

[UKPilot]

Howdy everyone,

I've been asked by a friend to do a little research on cargo aircraft. I've been searching the internet, but there are far more people here with this kind of knowledge then me trying to dig it out of random sites, plus I couldn't be worse at using keywords to find what I want. Anyways, I digress...

The basic requirements are it needs a range of ~1700nm and 25,000lbs payload (can be done in a couple trips). Everything else is open to discussion really. I'd like to stay away from the airbus/boeing size of aircraft and leaning more towards the turbo prop, small jet market. These really are the preliminary stages of research so any help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

UK

[username here]

You're in calgary?
You should try sunwest aviation. They might be able to help you out with their 1900D's or Metro 23's.
www.sunwestaviation.ca

[skydrolboy]

Can you stop for fuel??? 1700nm is starting to push the range for a turbo prop while still carrying a meaningful load of freight. Also what kind of freight are you planning on carrying, as that will also determine what kind of A/C to use, as you will have to meet the cargo door size and floor loading requirements.

[UKPilot]

You're in calgary?
You should try sunwest aviation. They might be able to help you out with their 1900D's or Metro 23's.
http://www.sunwestaviation.ca

Kind of looking at getting into the business myself to be honest. To see if it's viable.

[UKPilot]

Can you stop for fuel??? 1700nm is starting to push the range for a turbo prop while still carrying a meaningful load of freight. Also what kind of freight are you planning on carrying, as that will also determine what kind of A/C to use, as you will have to meet the cargo door size and floor loading requirements.

That's definitely a consideration. I was hoping to see if it could be done without having to stop to see what the options are.

The cargo is fresh fish so size of door isn't really an issue and they're self contained boxes for cooling.

The flights would overfly the states and if I had to stop for fuel there that brings in a whole different world of considerations, but that may end up being the most economical route as some of the smaller ones that can fly that distance (king air, pilatus, etc) really don't have the payload capacity.

[Ogee]

The basic requirements are it needs a range of ~1700nm and 25,000lbs payload (can be done in a couple trips).
Cheers,

UK

I thought cocaine came in kilos?

[UKPilot]

The basic requirements are it needs a range of ~1700nm and 25,000lbs payload (can be done in a couple trips).
Cheers,

UK

I thought cocaine came in kilos?

Oh no, the real cheap stuff comes in lbs.

[tired of the ground]

A buffalo or a Herc are looking to be your best bets. A metro or 1900 is going to need 5-7 trips. A dash 8 or Saab (if I remember) is going to need at least 3.

You don't have to clear customs if you are just doing a technical stop (for fuel). So, really, a 1700nm stage length isn't your biggest concern. 1700nm is an awkward distance; It's too far for turboprops and not far enough to really justify a Jet.

Good Luck. You'll need it.

[RVgrin]

You don't have to clear customs if you are just doing a technical stop (for fuel).

Really? Does this apply only to pre-screened scheduled commercial flights or can anybody do it? It would be nice to fly privately to Mexico or Caribbean from Canada making a couple of fuel stops along the way without jumping through the usual hoops. Does using the bathroom at an FBO count as a technical stop? Is there still an eAPIS requirement?

Does Canada have the same policy (e.g. US aircraft stopping in Canada en-route to Alaska). Convenient, but seems like a smuggler's loophole to me.

[Lpsi]

Humm?

So heres whats bugging me about your request,

If you are using this forum as a resource for a business model you are unqualified to go further than this, stop.

A 1700 mile arc from anywhere fish are harvested (assuming an ocean port where overflying the US would be required ) & on a scale you are talking about "25000 lbs at a time".

I have to ask why would you travel so far with presumably "fresh" fish? and why would you bring fish to Canada ???? A little like trying to sell ice to an Eskimo. I could see flying fish out of Canada but not into... Also why would you bring 25000 Lbs of fish at a time to the same place on a regular basis. The market would soon be flooded. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

At one point in my past, we hauled fresh fish (about 10000 Lbs at a time) from Fond du lac Sk to Points North Sk, where it was processed nearby and then trucked to Winnipeg MB, our understanding was that it was then flown to Europe to be sold there. The fish was kept cold but never frozen. Time was critical. There were days where things didnt work out and due to mechanical issues the load of fish spoiled. Not good!


With all due respect, if you are serious, you need to get an aircraft broker to provide the details you need.

Good Luck!

[UKPilot]

If you are using this forum as a resource for a business model you are unqualified to go further than this, stop.

That's why I posted on here! These really are the preliminary stages and a lot of good ideas have started on a napkin (not that I think this is ground breaking) but to get the brainstorming going you need input. I'm not on here to ask for a business model, but simply some suggestions from people about cargo aircraft options who are more knowledgeable than myself in an area that I have no real expertise. This is the beauty of the internet, it's a very valuable resource and allows you the opportunity to pick the brains of people you would never have met. Anyways, I know you know what the internet is, but I think telling me that I'm not qualified to go further than this when I'm looking only simply for information on an aircraft is a bit unjustified and jumps to several conclusions. However, your comment about the aircraft broker is greatly appreciated because that's definitely the next step.

In regards to selling ice to an eskimo, I think you're probably aware that there are many fish varieties that are not native to Canada in regions close to Canada that have a market in Canada (if that makes sense). I'm not creating this industry, but simply looking for ways to make it more profitable.

A buffalo or a Herc are looking to be your best bets. A metro or 1900 is going to need 5-7 trips. A dash 8 or Saab (if I remember) is going to need at least 3.

You don't have to clear customs if you are just doing a technical stop (for fuel). So, really, a 1700nm stage length isn't your biggest concern. 1700nm is an awkward distance; It's too far for turboprops and not far enough to really justify a Jet.

Excellent info. Helps me narrow down some options. 25,000 lbs was a number thrown at me and this will have to be adjusted according to the most profitable option.

[florch]

For an ongoing operation, the largest aircraft you can utilize, that still allows the frequency your customer requires, would be the most economical. For 25000 lbs by 1700NM, that's a jet as long as it is frequent enough.

[bigredone]

DC-6. It will take 25,000, has a cargo door and if you are willing to down load can do 1700nm easy.

[Liquid Charlie]

DC-6. It will take 25,000, has a cargo door and if you are willing to down load can do 1700nm easy.

and get an USN bird and you have a cargo door at each end -

I doubt if you will find a turbo prop that you can afford to run on that stage length and payload - electra comes close but expensive to run -- herc would do it but at 20 mil for an H model and then cost of operation - nope and a buffalo - not even close --

727 modified with the high bypass engines would be a reasonable candidate and initial cost would be reasonable - that's if you could find one for sale.

[cdnpilot77]

From Wikipedia...for Fokker 50 & 100...I believe the last item would be to prevent the fish pirates! 1 fuel stop and 2 loads. You would need to figure out how to get a back haul on the runs as well to make this viable....thats a long way to go empty.

General characteristics

Crew: 2 (pilot & co-pilot)
Length: 25.25 m (82 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 29.00 m (95 ft 2 in)
Height: 8.32 m (27 ft 4 in)
Wing area: 70.0 m² (736 ft²)
Empty weight: 12,250 kg (27,602 lb)
Loaded weight: 18,600 kg (41,000 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 20,820 kg (45,900 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Pratt & Whitney Canada PW125B turboprops, 3,864 kW (4,500 hp) each
Performance

Cruise speed: 453 km/h (245 kn , 282 mph)
Range: 2,055 km (1,110 nmi, 1,284 mi)
Service ceiling: 7,620 m (25,000 ft)

Armament
2 × AGM-84D Harpoon missiles and radar, sonar systems (Republic of Singapore Air Force Fokker 50s)

[60N30W]

Depending on how often you are going to be hauling a load it might be a lot easier to start off chartering someone else to do the actual flying for you. Lots of work to set up a cargo carrier and then only fly once a week between your point 1700nm away and Canada. To start your venture look into chartering an aircraft for the flight, in the long run it will be much cheaper till you can build up the work to have your own aircraft, and you would need to keep it flying 5 days a week to pay the bills.

There are a number of Canadian carriers that have 737C available for charter: Air North, CND North, First Air, Nolinor and Air Inuit. Might want to talk to them and see if you can get your venture started that way.

Good luck

Also might be worth asking Buffalo what the Electra is going out for these days, don't think they are flying much so you may be able to get a good deal.

One other suggestion is that you look for belly space on a passenger aircraft coming out of your point of origin to your destination in Canada. PM if you want some more info on this. We carry lots of fish and produce out of the south.

[ScudRunner]

I would take a look down at ABX Air who use to do a ton of flying for DHL, they had about 30 DC-9's laying around there Wilmington Ohio Airport. I was told you could pick one up engines included for about 200K no cargo door just bombed through the regular door and already hollowed out for cargo use.

You don't want to be paying much for a plane that's going to sit, and you say you don't mind a few stops along the way or multiple loads its worth a look because its built by douglas its a tank and you are about to get a ton more spares on the market with NW/Delta retiring the last of their fleet.

Also look at older CRJ's more efficient but probably more $$ to acquire, still in production which equals support available from manufacturer. Both aircraft will be limited in Range at max payload but if your not paying much out upfront who cares buy 3 DC-9s operate two and have a spare.

[boeingboy]

I would take a look down at ABX Air who use to do a ton of flying for DHL, they had about 30 DC-9's laying around there Wilmington Ohio Airport. I was told you could pick one up engines included for about 200K no cargo door just bombed through the regular door and already hollowed out for cargo use.

From Wikipedia...for Fokker 50 & 100...

The biggest problem with these would be certification for cargo ops as none of them have been certified in cargo config in Canada. And the Fokker 50 was not certified at all. Whatever you do - make sure it's been previously certified in Canada in a cargo config or be prepared to fork out some MAJOR dough.

[UKPilot]

Thanks everyone for all the info. It's very much appreciated.

I would take a look down at ABX Air who use to do a ton of flying for DHL, they had about 30 DC-9's laying around there Wilmington Ohio Airport. I was told you could pick one up engines included for about 200K no cargo door just bombed through the regular door and already hollowed out for cargo use.

That's a beauty of a tip.

none of them have been certified in cargo config in Canada

What sort of dough are you talking to get them certified? Would it still end up being cheaper than buying a CRJ or something along those lines?

[SeptRepair]

Does the aircraft have to be land based?

[ScudRunner]

http://www.speednews.com/EquipmentResul ... =Freighter

There I did your homework, those are just the Freighter models, you can find a ton more of spares quite easily from the Pax stock. Price well they have been on the market for a few years, as much as I love the DC-9 its getting long in the tooth so spares on hand is key.

Heed the warning about the Freighters not being certified in Canada. I don't know this and not the guy to talk to but a few calls to TC and that should clear that up, I'm sure Boeing Boys right though. Technically there is no modification other than removal of the interior. Of course the strengthening of the floor and installed clamps, I wouldn't expect it to be that cumbersome of a certification. You are dealing with TC remember and I say not that cumbersome meaning develop a healthy drinking problem now to save time, plan for a lot of time and money.

[boeingboy]

It could be a lot - depending on what you want to certify.

If it's a full tilt conversion with a cargo door installed - count on at up to 6 months of paperwork - and that's if the company who did the conversion is still around. So to that - there are 6 months of lease payments, storage fees, insurance, etc.....Then there are the costs to TC which can be in the 10's of thousnads.

If it's just had the seats pulled - you still need to have the nets and hardpoints certified - not to mention they will want to look at other things such as the air conditioning system. How would it affect a fire? There would have to be changes made. Then there is the barrier at the front to protect the crew in case of accident. Add to that smoke evac, trust me - cargo conversions change the way air and smoke moves through the cabin. And it goes on, and on, and on. It might be cheaper, easier, and faster to have a full tilt one certified.

I was deeply involved with starting a cargo operation and I know the things that will trip you up like this. Trust me - you can pick up a 727 for less than 2 mil. Besides - if this ever comes to fruition, you are going to want to get more than 1 customer. Knock on some doors and get some more freight to make it pay for itself. There is a ton of work out there for the right people.

This is one of the problems that sunk ACE. They figured a DC-10 is a DC-10 and it would be 2 months at the most. 6 months and a LOT of money later - they still had no airplane and went under before they could put it in service.

[boeingboy]

PS - The ones for 200K most likely need D checks. In fact - they would need those checks if they were being imported. As well as the CPCP aging aircraft inspections, plus any SB's, AD's, and TC mods required by Canada.

So your $200,000 airplane just cost you $1.5 million.

If you want to go that route $200,00 will get you any one of AA's MD-80's that are sitting down south. Little bigger and burns less gas.

[Otterflogger]

If you need a "STOL" machine, check this one out....... Shut one down on "takeoff", and save fuel "enroute"...

http://www.penturbo.com/mpeg/Takeofftes ... weight.wmv

Cheers,

Steve

WEBSITE - http://www.penturbo.com/

[Liquid Charlie]

correct me if I'm wrong here but looking at the specs for that turbo cariboo you can't go anywhere with a max load since you can only carry 1500 lbs of fuel - how could one sell something like that unless you had a very specific contract.