Write Your MP's (Canada vs Emirates)

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Write Your MP's (Canada vs Emirates)

Post by complexintentions »

Does anyone else find it a bit distasteful that Canada is now being subjected to what basically amounts to extortion?

Does anyone truly believe that Emirates has any motivation beyond their own greed and profitability? (If you do please pm me.)

If you want your jobs to come over to Dubai, and to live and work in a place with abhorrent human rights conditions and no worker protections whatsoever, please do nothing. Otherwise you might consider contacting your MP and suggesting in the strongest possible terms that a democratically elected government not be blackmailed by a corrupt dictatorship. In spite of what Cat Driver thinks of Canadian government, believe me the alternative makes it look pretty damn good! lol
Brent Jang
Published on Wednesday, Feb. 24, 2010 11:04PM EST
Last updated on Saturday, Feb. 27, 2010 4:34AM EST
The United Arab Emirates has requested that Ottawa grant Emirates Airline greater access to Canada in exchange for extending permission for the Canadian Forces to stay at a Persian Gulf base that serves as a crucial jump-off point to Afghanistan.

The base was established after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, but an agreement between Canada and the UAE is set to be renegotiated by mid-2010, threatening the future of the desert base that offers logistics support to troops in Afghanistan.

Emirates, owned by the Dubai government, currently flies three times a week between Toronto and Dubai – one of seven emirates in the UAE. The carrier wants to ramp up its Toronto-Dubai service to twice daily.

In a letter to Canada's Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, the UAE linked the airline's route-expansion proposal with negotiations over the fate of the Canadian Forces' forward logistics base in the Persian Gulf, an Ottawa-based airline industry lobbyist said in an interview.

Emirates is also seeking to introduce service to Vancouver and Calgary, but the UAE's request doesn't insist that those cities be immediately included in any new aviation pact, the lobbyist said.

A Canadian airline official added that Canada's Department of National Defence favours making moves to keep the UAE onside and preserving the base, but Foreign Affairs and Transport Canada are concerned about caving in because of the precedent it would set for other countries to make demands for new flights.

A spokesman for Andrew Parker, Emirates senior vice-president of international affairs, said last night that the disagreement over access to Canada's airspace is to be resolved between governments.

Last June, Emirates introduced the double-decker Airbus A380 to its Toronto-Dubai route, but complained that Ottawa unfairly restricted access to Canada, effectively shielding Montreal-based Air Canada and its partners from facing increased competition on international routes.

Catherine Loubier, a spokeswoman for Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon, said in a statement last night that “any discussion between Canada and the UAE on the administration of our air transportation agreement is conducted between the parties to the agreement, and in keeping with the normal exercise of Canada's diplomatic relations.”

Another UAE-based carrier, Etihad Airways, flies three times a week between Toronto and Abu Dhabi. “Canada and the UAE have excellent relations which include direct air services, and which provide for six flights by UAE-based airlines to Canada per week,” Ms. Loubier said.

Industry analysts, however, say the UAE has grown increasingly frustrated after Ottawa's repeated rejection of expansion applications from Emirates.

Earlier this week, Emirates released a study that it commissioned, saying there would be $480-million in annual economic benefits for Canada if Ottawa allowed the foreign carrier to expand in Toronto and introduce service to Vancouver and Calgary.

“The increased passenger traffic to Canada generated by Emirates flights will stimulate Canada's domestic carriers because a good portion of the new passengers coming to Toronto, Vancouver or Calgary will take connecting domestic flights once they arrive in Canada,” said the report prepared by InterVistas Consulting Inc. for Emirates.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by TyrellCorp »

This is very scary stuff and thanks to complexintentions for posting this. He beat me to it.

We HAVE to act on this one folks. This threat is very real and has been hammering away at Ottawa for more than a year now. It will affect everyone and not just Air Canada. DO write to your MPs or be prepared for some terrible consequences.
Perhaps we need to accelerate The College Of Pilots and get it involved in protecting our scarce flying jobs.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by Cat Driver »

In spite of what Cat Driver thinks of Canadian government, believe me the alternative makes it look pretty damn good! lol
Never worked in Dubai but did three stints in Jeddah and unless one has experienced their culture it is difficult to explain it.

Had my wife as a crew member on a ferry flight and we had an engine problem which forced us to stay there for a week and when she gets femalish I threaten to take her back to Jeddah... :smt040

Even I hesitate to compare Canada to that culture.... :mrgreen:
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by modi13 »

I'm not going to to address the human rights issue, but the Canadian government has been excessively restrictive with granting routes to foreign airlines. Air France isn't allowed to fly to Vancouver because they're preserving the route to Paris for Air Canada - a route it doesn't operate year-round. Using a bargaining chip also doesn't amount to extortion; the Emiratis haven't said they would prevent Canada from using the base if Emirates didn't get the route, it's just something they've put on the table. It's no different than two companies negotiating a contract, with each side requesting something they want from the other. I don't see how you can possibly it as stealing Canadian pilots' jobs either, since no Canadian airline operates the routes they do, and an enormous proportion of their pilots are Canadian. Quite frankly, I would love to be able to fly direct from Vancouver to Dubai, not only because it takes about 24 hours to go through London, Amsterdam or Frankfurt, but because it would then become a hub to other destinations in the region like India and Africa. I would also love to live in Dubai again, and to work for Emirates; the culture in the UAE is significantly different from the in Saudi Arabia, especially for women.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by bmc »

All Gulf carriers are 6th freedom operators. The desire to serve Canadian points to Dubai or Abu Dhabi have nothing to do with local traffic to/from Dubai/Abu Dhabi, but everywhere in the Emirate's or Etihad's networks, namely the South Asian Sub Continent. There is no strong community of interest between major Canadian city and Dubai per se. Certainly not enough to justify 800+ seats per week.

The concern is the impact on AC for their flying to European hubs as gulf carriers will most certainly undercut prices to steal traffic to the sub continent, the gulf, Africa and some Asian destinations.

That being said, I'm a big supporter of open skies and believe in survival of the fittest and offering Canadian's more choices instead of a regulated environment.

In this particular instance, I support the desire to not cave into the UAE's demands. There are lots of places in the gulf for Canada to set up a staging post. Pissing off Canada will not further Emirates or Etihad's long term goals in the least. It will slam the door shut for them.

Hollow threat in my opinion. Nothing to worry about here.
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Last edited by bmc on Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by tbaylx »

Modi13,

Better think hard about working for EK and living in Dubai, things are alot different there from a few years ago, not a very nice place to be employed now. I'm a happy camper being out of there and back in Canada even if it's a tough job situation. Some things jsut aren't worth leaving behind for a big jet.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by complexintentions »

bmc,

respectfully I do agree to a point with the concept of survival of the fittest, and I have no love lost for Air Canada (as a corporation, not referring to my colleagues working there). But when a company like Emirates is "fit" largely due to the dubious "advantages" they enjoy operating in a dictatorship that prevents the formation of labour unions, and has zero legal protections for contractual law and workers, well...it gives one pause for thought. Is that really the door we want to open?

This issue goes deeper than "let's get rid of that lazy awful Air Canada", it has to do with globalization and having the strongest "competitors" being the ones who are based in the regimes with the least hinderance of such niceties as democratic representation and worker protections. @modi13, if you really think you would prefer to work as a pilot in Dubai, for Emirates, they are currently desperately short of qualified pilots, and having trouble recruiting. Of the last batch of 24 applicants, for example, 14 were offered jobs. Do you know how many accepted?

3.

Why is this, during the Worst Global Economic Crisis, Like, Ever?

And setting aside the issue of protectionism for a second, since when does Canada roll over when a spoiled, entitled foreign entity snaps its fingers?

I for one would like to see something between poorly managed legacy carriers, and quasi-sweatshop operations like Emirates. There has to be a middle ground. But allowing Emirates an inch on this issue is a leap in the wrong direction. I'll take AC and it's woes any day over the dark side of Emirates, hiding behind an expensive PR campaign and shiny new airplanes.

btw, tbaylx is absolutely correct. The Dubai of today does not even faintly resemble the Dubai of even a few years ago.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by Vickers vanguard »

can anybody with some spare time on their hands, come-up with a template of a letter we can send it to our mp.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by Dust Devil »

I have no issue with opening the skies. However when it's used as a bargaining chip against us I'd tell these guys to pound all the sand in their desert. If they don't want to be our ally that is up to them. We need our own blue water navy where we can stage ourselves anywhere we need to be and to help in controlling our arctic.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these guys on the verge of bankruptcy? They are hardly in a position to demand anything. Our military roll in Afghanistan is nearly at an end anyway. What else do we have going on in the region? At the same time ban them from our airspace all together just for pissing us off.

We won the Olympics we don't have to take shit from anyone ;)
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by TyrellCorp »

But we really need that base to pick up all the Arab troops that have volunteered to fight the war on terror. Seriously!
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by bcflyer »

If you want to open up the skies and have survival of the fittest, lets make sure the playing field is even. As has been mentioned earlier, Emirates operates under a completely different set of rules than any airline in North America and most of Europe. Have a look on pprune to see what I mean. They claim to be independant from their government and yet they somehow have the ability to use a military airbase as collateral? I wonder if Air Canada could use the facility at Goose Bay as a bargaining chip to get more flights to Germany?...
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by oldncold »

blue water navy WOW a concept that is mothballed since end of ww2. you are right however!

Unfortunately we cannot even get new supply ships built,the frigates are 15-20 yrs old now . Canada has not bought a new fighter get in 30+ yrs and . and 1500 people got terminated at canadas last major shipyard . Davie in q.c due to banruptcy . lack of progress in contractng new supply ships didn't help either.

it is a wonder we can wipe our own asses . in any co-ordinated national policy way I don't hold out much hope on the dubai issue.

this what happens when to many politically correct do gooders try to run things in a minoirty gov't WHAT GETS DONE SWEET F/A. End of Rant!! send that to your mp. :evil:
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by A330 »

Complex,

I agree with many of your assertions and the cold hard facts of Dubai and the UAE, but don't you see this going a bit too far? Why do you see blocking your own airline towards expansion? Maybe your looking towards the exit, perhaps a good idea...The day you start to loath and go to these lengths against your own employer, maybe it's time to look for another opportunity.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by complexintentions »

Hey thanks for the advice, what makes you think I'm not? lol Contempt for the country and the company is not the same thing as being unhappy overall and the time will come to leave, with no looking back, but in the meantime...keep your friends close, and your enemies closer...I'm not against EK expanding per se, but perhaps they can agree to abide by the bilateral they signed and realize that markets don't necessarily open to them just because they throw a tantrum or try to make threats. They can get away with that in their little backwards shithole of Dubai with their employees but I'll be damned if I'll sit by and not say something when they try to pull it in a real country.

Such is my right but I thank you for your concern!

:lol:
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by bmc »

AIR CANADA TAKES AIM AT EMIRATES' EXPANSION PLANS
Reuters, 9 March 2010

Vancouver - The chief executive of Air Canada (ACa.TO) (ACb.TO) accused Emirates airline on Tuesday of wanting to "flood" Canadian skies with airline seats so it can scoop up travelers and divert them through Dubai.

Such a move by the Dubai government-owned airline would be "severely damaging" to airports and airlines operating in Canada as it would steal away the connecting passengers they depend on to make their routes profitable, Calin Rovinescu, CEO of Canada's biggest airline, said.

"While its argument may be seductive, what Emirates' strategy will do is constrain the growth of Canadian airports by turning them from hubs into stubs at the end of a spoke that leads only to Emirates' hub in Dubai," Rovinescu said in a speech in Vancouver.

Emirates has been lobbying the Canadian government to allow it to expand its three-day-a-week Dubai-Toronto service. It also wants to fly to Calgary and Vancouver.

A study, commissioned by Emirates and released two weeks ago, concluded that Canada could reap economic benefits of C$480 million ($466 million) a year and create 2,800 jobs if the Mideast airline was given more flying slots.

"It is well known in the industry that Emirates is trying to push hard to divert as much global flow traffic via Dubai in order to deploy its massive fleet of wide-body aircraft, including (Airbus (EAD.PA)) A380s it has purchased or has on order," Rovinescu said.

He said statistics showed that the number of people traveling daily to Dubai from Canada last year was "barely enough to fill a mid-size, 213-seat Boeing 767".

Emirates was not immediately available for comment.

Last month Emirates' senior vice-president of international affairs, Andrew Parker, told Toronto's Globe and Mail newspaper that Air Canada and its Star Alliance partner, Deutsche Lufthansa AG, were unnecessarily worried about losing passengers to Emirates.

He said Emirates' Toronto-Dubai flights have been more than 90 percent full.

.............................................................................


It's important to qualify the last statement. Its 90% L.F. is not destined to Dubai. Sure, there is some local traffic, but it's minimal. What is the community of interest to justify so much capacity between both points? It's hub flow to India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, other Gulf points, South Africa.

Good for consumers. Not good for AC.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by Brewguy »

Dust Devil wrote:I have no issue with opening the skies. However when it's used as a bargaining chip against us I'd tell these guys to pound all the sand in their desert. If they don't want to be our ally that is up to them. We need our own blue water navy where we can stage ourselves anywhere we need to be and to help in controlling our arctic.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these guys on the verge of bankruptcy? They are hardly in a position to demand anything. Our military roll in Afghanistan is nearly at an end anyway. What else do we have going on in the region? At the same time ban them from our airspace all together just for pissing us off.

We won the Olympics we don't have to take shit from anyone ;)
Dear lord, what is the world coming to? This is like the third time so far this year that I find myself in complete agreement with Dust Devil :shock:

I can't believe I'm saying this, but...
+1
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by bmc »

Dust Devil wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these guys on the verge of bankruptcy? They are hardly in a position to demand anything.
The negotiations are between Canada and the United Arab Emirates. Dubai is one of the seven emirates and, yes, it seems they are having "challenges" these days. Abu Dhabi, on the other hand, has the oil and cash and a growing airline in the form of Etihad. Both Etihad and Emirates focus on 6th freedom traffic and both do a fine job of drawing it through their hubs.
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by Dust Devil »

bmc wrote:
Dust Devil wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these guys on the verge of bankruptcy? They are hardly in a position to demand anything.
The negotiations are between Canada and the United Arab Emirates. Dubai is one of the seven emirates and, yes, it seems they are having "challenges" these days. Abu Dhabi, on the other hand, has the oil and cash and a growing airline in the form of Etihad. Both Etihad and Emirates focus on 6th freedom traffic and both do a fine job of drawing it through their hubs.
Ah I gotcha. So an emirate is a state within a larger union similar to the U.S?
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by Dust Devil »

Brewguy wrote:
Dust Devil wrote:I have no issue with opening the skies. However when it's used as a bargaining chip against us I'd tell these guys to pound all the sand in their desert. If they don't want to be our ally that is up to them. We need our own blue water navy where we can stage ourselves anywhere we need to be and to help in controlling our arctic.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these guys on the verge of bankruptcy? They are hardly in a position to demand anything. Our military roll in Afghanistan is nearly at an end anyway. What else do we have going on in the region? At the same time ban them from our airspace all together just for pissing us off.

We won the Olympics we don't have to take shit from anyone ;)
Dear lord, what is the world coming to? This is like the third time so far this year that I find myself in complete agreement with Dust Devil :shock:

I can't believe I'm saying this, but...
+1
How is this. "screw hippies, screw unions, vote conservative, give pilots nothing, give owners everything.......oh I almost forgot Riders will win the Grey Cup in 10"

There ya go buddy does that make ya feel better :smt040


p.s

The Grey Cup thing is the truth ;)
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Re: Write Your MP's!

Post by Brewguy »

Damn, I'm still pretty much in agreement with all of that too. All you need to do is change "vote conservative" to "vote green" and I'm all in.
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Re: Air Canada; afraid to compete

Post by jetsetfly »

Well may be they should also stop outsourcing jobs to oversea companies air canada is a joke especially the management
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Re: Air Canada; afraid to compete

Post by 3=47 »

Emirates is a nationally owned subsidized airline, not exactly fair competition, to AC
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Re: Air Canada; afraid to compete

Post by godsrcrazy »

3=47 wrote:Emirates is a nationally owned subsidized airline, not exactly fair competition, to AC
If you did your home work you would know that Air Canada us to be Nationally owned and subsidized. This is the only reason they are here today and not airlines like Pacific Western/Canadian airlines and Ward air.
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Re: Air Canada; afraid to compete

Post by Pratt »

godsrcrazy wrote:
3=47 wrote:Emirates is a nationally owned subsidized airline, not exactly fair competition, to AC
If you did your home work you would know that Air Canada us to be Nationally owned and subsidized. This is the only reason they are here today and not airlines like Pacific Western/Canadian airlines and Ward air.
The bold part above is the difference between the two. That was awhile ago I believe. :roll:
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