Air Canada A321 at Toronto on Feb 22nd 2010, landed without

[rigpiggy]

It can happen to anybody, I am just wondering if you have an SOP where taxi light comes on when landing clearance given, or do you just light em all up at the FAF

Incident: Air Canada A321 at Toronto on Feb 22nd 2010, landed without clearance
By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Feb 23rd 2010 22:28Z, last updated Tuesday, Feb 23rd 2010 22:28Z

An Air Canada Airbus A321-200, registration C-GJWO performing flight AC-485 from Montreal,QC to Toronto Pearson,ON (Canada), was on approach to Toronto and talking normally to approach control, who cleared the flight for the ILS approach runway 05. The crew however did not report to tower, who did not issue a landing clearance, numerous attempts by tower to contact the crew went without reply. The aircraft touched down safely without landing clearance, the crew contacted ground upon vacating the runway.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA4 ... /CYUL/CYYZ

[Rockie]

Everybody uses the nose light as confirmation of landing clearance, which I think is pretty much industry standard. But oddly enough the only place it's written that I could find is the Embraer SOP's. It isn't in the FOM or any of the other type specific SOP's.

[fanspeed]

Relying on a switch position is a poor practice. I use my head to confirm I've been cleared to land. If any doubt exists, I call the tower-they haven't had a problem with this practice to date.

[whiteguy]

Everybody uses the nose light as confirmation of landing clearance, which I think is pretty much industry standard. But oddly enough the only place it's written that I could find is the Embraer SOP's. It isn't in the FOM or any of the other type specific SOP's.

Not everyone!

[Johnny767]

Ridiculous practice; "Did I get Landing Clearance..must have.. landing light switch is on?"

Because it is an "unwritten, accepted, passed on by osmosis," practice at Air Canada, it is industry standard?

When in doubt, ask ATC.

[Rockie]

You are misinterpreting how it's used. The nose light is not used as confirmation that clearance has been recieved. Rather the nose light being off is a clue that you might not have recieved it, and you had better check. If there is a question in your mind you don't depend on the light position...you ask.

These aren't inexperienced rubes with 200 hours you're talking about here.

BTW, this isn't my first airline. Every one I've been at has used the same thing.

[rigpiggy]

If I remember about 8 years back Jazz went to everything on at the FAF, they had about 5 no clearance landings before switching back. Anyone, beuller?

[jazzbeat]

Personally I don't like the way YYZ controllers are doing the transfer from approach to tower:

In most of the other airports they will tell you 5 to 10 miles final to change frequency right away

in YYZ they clear you for the approach and it can be 20 - 30 miles away and to contact tower at the FAF... I think it's a little bit easier to forget to contact tower in 5 min then right away...


just my opinion...

[Rockie]

Personally I don't like the way YYZ controllers are doing the transfer from approach to tower:

In most of the other airports they will tell you 5 to 10 miles final to change frequency right away

in YYZ they clear you for the approach and it can be 20 - 30 miles away and to contact tower at the FAF... I think it's a little bit easier to forget to contact tower in 5 min then right away...


just my opinion...

I agree. 170 to the FAF...start throwing everything out to reach VAPP by 1000' AGL...make the appropriate internal verbiage and checks going by the FAF...and remember to call tower. Let's see how much more we can cram into those 2 miles.

Is there something wrong with calling them at ten miles?

[sidestick stirrer]

It used to be a mandatory call to Tower upon passing the FAF inbound, no matter if you had already been cleared to land, that was the IFR protocol for many years.
I'm sure that procedure caught many scenarios shaping up like this one.
And if the Tower made great effort to contact this flight, did they try 21.5?
How many of us are on Company on Two by that time, instead of staying on 21.5 for just such a case as this?
Why didn't the Tower push a button and ask Approach to remind them to switch over?
Almost fourty years ago, as a young Second Officer on a -40 series Eight, we landed without clearance, and Tower began to tear a strip off of us. The crusty, old Captain picked up his battered hand mike and proceeded to give Tower heck for sitting there in their ivory tower with nothing to do except watch us land without clearance, etc., etc, and just who would be held most accountable if something had happened.
It was amazing to listen to and he had them apologizing by the time he finished his rant.
Don't want to get on the wrong side of those old guys...

[Tiny Tyke]

When YYZ terminal tells me to go to Tower at VEPNA (FAF), I usually switch about 2nm before the FAF for the exact reasons stated above. To many calls/checks/things to remember. (ie LDG CLR.)

I check in a touch early and get it out of the way. If terminal is looking for me they'll know where to find me.

two cents.

[Localizer]

Rockie wrote: Is there something wrong with calling them at ten miles?

Yes! YYZ Controllers can't handle more than 2 aircraft on tower frequency at a time.

Unless its Rog! .. That guy can push tin! Glad he's back!

[jazzbeat]

Can't believe Gainey traded Roddddggggeeee to Toronto....

[747longhaul]

Safety first regardless of which company you EVER worked for:

It was not industry standard.

More lights on, the better, the less chance of hitting birds! Using the nose gear light at the landing clearance command, is old school, the old way, outdated. It is another item, to look at when the work load is already high, and the focus is on the runway , ATC, and traffic, not looking for a switch in the dark, bouncing around in the seat, trying to get your hand on the switch.

[aV1aTOr]

The commuter I fly for uses the taxi light on at landing clearance rule. As some have said, it is not an indication that the clearance has been received, but rather a reminder that maybe it hasn't yet. To say it's better to just 'remember' sounds very 703ish.
Again, if there is any doubt at all the tower is more than happy to confirm for you.

[yycflyguy]

Again, if there is any doubt at all the tower is more than happy to confirm for you.

Unless it is YYZ or YYC. Then you will get your confirmation with a healthy serving of attitude.

[RB-211]

Those that give you are hard time for confirming a clearance is not doing anyone, let alone themselves any favours. This is clearly childish and unprofessional behaviour.

I had a controller at LHR actually thank me for confirming a cleared level on departure. In his words he wished more people would do it and level busts would reduce as a result.

I have always found the controllers at YYC to be very good but there are a few arrogant idiots working in YYZ. It is well known.

[PunkStarStudios]

I heard RODG about a month ago. Awesome.
I honestly don't fly in to YYZ more than once or twice a month but I can tell you this.... those guys are at the top of their game for the most part at YYZ. I've had night flights where I couldn't believe the guy at centre (granted it was Boston centre) had the job. Horrid. But the YYZ guys really know their stuff and seem to be utmost professionals... RODG is just the icing on the cake.

[Bede]

I heard RODG about a month ago. Awesome.
I honestly don't fly in to YYZ more than once or twice a month but I can tell you this.... those guys are at the top of their game for the most part at YYZ. I've had night flights where I couldn't believe the guy at centre (granted it was Boston centre) had the job. Horrid. But the YYZ guys really know their stuff and seem to be utmost professionals... RODG is just the icing on the cake.

I tend to agree. I find the YYZ center guys really good, but apron and ground really bad. Do we really have to go to 121.9 just so they tell us to go into AL and contact apron?

[rigpiggy]

I don't know being told to slow to 170 100+ back, right up til linng, then over to rodge, where resume normal speed is the rule. Roger Go Fast engaged. E-Rog aka MJ is Le Roy

[conehead]

Correct me if I'm wrong; apron at YYZ is now a GTAA employee?

[rigpiggy]

Don't get the girl on Apron, to use an east coast expression
"sharper than a sac'o'hammers"

[fanspeed]

The commuter I fly for uses the taxi light on at landing clearance rule. As some have said, it is not an indication that the clearance has been received, but rather a reminder that maybe it hasn't yet. To say it's better to just 'remember' sounds very 703ish.
Again, if there is any doubt at all the tower is more than happy to confirm for you.

Landing without a clearance sounds more 703ish.

[rigpiggy]

Ask the 5 jazz guys in 3 months after they changed that SOP