ramp positions issues

[rocco1]

Dear Fellows,

I apology for the following comment. Although I'd like to share with you, some ideas regarding the last few postings for ramp attandant positions requiring CPL with multi IFR.
In the past few years, as you probably already are aware of, this professional position (ramp attendant) changed its minima requirements: from very strong arms and good work ethic, to CPL multi IFR. Where this hiring philosophy is leading to?
Everyday most of us spend time checking for new job postings on this very forum, hoping to find a possible position. We all know that this postings are few and require high times. Most of us try to apply without success.
In the meantime, the companies hire low time pilots and without any promise, making them work for peanuts, for months and months or even years, before eventually putting (some of) them in a flight position.
What is going to happen to all of those pilots ( flight instructors and bush pilots), whom most of the time are not able to log multiengine time? Because as far as things are going, I have the feeling that there is not going to be much space for these pilots.
Companies are hiring low time pilots for ramp positions knowing that they will stuck with them for a long time (and so far everyboby know this). The young pilot will do anything to avoid the experience of building time as a fligh instructor or as bush pilots in the remote north. Companies, taking advantage of this, pay the rampies and future F.O.s ridicolous paychecks, with which is barely possible to survive.
Well, here we are comparing between 120 thousand dollars spent in licences and years of studying with 9 dollars an hour and a dream to fly a plane. There are tons of ways to skim off the top and the companies, doing so, are not violating any labour rule. Question: What is going to happen to all those pilots, flight instructors, like me, that are counting every single day the hours flown to reach those posted minima that those companies are requiring? I think that once again the companies are leading the industry and not the pilots are doing so. If this behavior of hiring low timers with a phantom promise of a flight position, will keep going, instructors will remain instructors, bush pilots will remain bush pilots and we all going to be here questioning ourselves who's hiring and who's not. What would happen if from tomorrow all these instructors and bush pilots will stop flying? I believe you know the answer. Maybe flight schools and small operators will start to hire low time pilots to make them instructors, and what is going to happen to those companies hiring low timers as rampies? I know, I know! there is always going to be someone willing to prostitute himself because that would better than to be unemployed. What is going to happen if all of us (instructors and bush pilots) wake up one day and decide to be unemployed instead to be a “slave”?...A union would take form?
Please do not forget that Canada introduced the multi license system which is nor fish nor meat, but it is just a way to satisfy the airlines in order to pay their pilots less than nothing. I know some of view may thing this posting is too pessimistic, in realty I am only trying to face reality.

Any of your comments will be appreciated, as long as we remain on a civil level.

[merlin]

a 200 hr pilot should not be a flight instructor..... this is one of the problems.

[Pratt X 3]

2 things:
a. Did you really spend $120,000 on licences?
b. I actually made more money ramping and dispatching while waiting for a flying slot to open than I did the first couple of years once I started flying for a living.
That's the only things I got out of your rambling rant. Sorry I couldn't help, whatever you were trying to get across.

[rocco1]

Ramp6....

I don`t think you really got my point

anyway...

[rocco1]

pratt x3

where wer you when the unemployed instructr where in the schoolteaching people like you for nothing.Where were you when a bush pilot stuck nto ice condition thinking ``i is ok,one day it will be better`` where were you when i was removing ice from my plane and dispatching students refulling aircraft...WHERE WERE YOU

[Pratt X 3]

"Say again, you are coming in stupid"
But seriously, I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your posts. My 2 comments were the only things that popped into my head when I tried to read your original post. And I'm really confused with your reply to my post. I'm not trying to pick a fight; just trying to make sense of your post and trying to help with whatever your issue is.

[Invertago]

rocco1 I hope you can express ideas better with your students then you managed with that rant. I think most of us agree with what we could understand of your rant, but you probably lost most of us half way. As for instructing and just counting hours... well, you must be a lot of fun to fly with.

[canadapilot924]

Who says "hour-counters" can't be good instructors? Aside from the lucky few getting to fly the twin, I imagine the vast majority of instructors would leave for that coveted "real-world" job in a heartbeat. I am bewildered that despite the horrendous pay and conditions we are still such a proud, professional bunch (for the most part).

[iflyforpie]

a 200 hr pilot should not be a flight instructor..... this is one of the problems.

200 hour pilots have been instructors since before WWII. If that is a problem it is not a new one...



As for the whole ramp thing.... it is as much pilots actually accepting these positions as the employers taking advantage of them. Some of us didn't have to do ramp. And if it meant taking a few years off flying and making real money, so much the better.

And 120K? Was a Navajo, 340, and 737 PPC included in that to help with advancement?

[Duncan Idaho]

Where were you?!?!??!?!

[loopa]

a 200 hr pilot should not be a flight instructor..... this is one of the problems.

You hit it BANG ON.

Retired airline and air force pilot's should be instructors, and 200 hour scrubs should be type rated to fly with veteran captains for an airline or regional carrier. But in the capitalist system, I don't see this happening.

[raven54]

Jesus, I just slide down the back of the collective IQ bell curve on this one. WHERE WERE YOU?!?!?!?!?

[rocco1]

I am sorry for my rant and I appreciate all of your comments.......Sorry for my attitude, I just watching carefully this industry and it seems to get worse and worse.
Still I think that flight instructing is a more valuable flying experience than ramping (with all respect with the ramp guys) . Considering that most of the instructors do not build much time in the twin, maybe it should be better to apply for ramp positions after the CPL and try to get a steady income and maybe some twin time in a less time than an instructor does now.

Anyway, as far as the 120K, I believe that is what Seneca college requires to get into the 4 years program.

take care

[seatosky24]

I was a 230 hour pilot straight from school, who went to work the ramp up north too, on the promise of getting into the right seat evetually.
First, I was told I would work as a customer service agent. If I passed that in a few months, then I'd work the ramp. Sure enough, I got moved onto the ramp.

Then I was told if I passed that, I'd get a right seat spot. Well, after over a year working in -40 conditions, working for peanuts and under emotional abuse (no joke), I finally saw that I was going to be a rampie forever. I finally clue in that they were using me as cheap labour while they hired other pilots with time to fly the right seat. Believe me, before everyone says anything, I was a stellar employee, great attitude and did anything and everything they asked. Even the ops manager even apologised when I quit and felt sorry for me but he could do nothing.

Everyone saw I was cheap labour and telling a pilot with a dream, that you'd fly one day, will get us to stay through thick and thin surviving on ramen noodles...but abusing us as cheap labour with no intention of following through on your word....cruel.

I have thought many times how could I start some kind of regulation or a union type to protect situations like these. I've seen it happen to friends not just me.

As much as I love flying this industry sickens me sometimes.
So I understand your post. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT....AND I'LL NEVER WORK THE RAMP EVER AGAIN.

[rocco1]

Thank you Seatosky24

My post was not intended to offend any rampy, but instead to warning all of us of the disgusting threats that are behind those jobs posting. Most companies hire their F/O`s from the office position (see Sprint). So let them get their own goddamn rampies from the sand. That is NOT the way that a pilot should start his career, with promises that will never be honoured. I am sorry for you and I wish you all the best and please, do not let any air carrier CP to even think that he can touch your self esteem...Come on guys we are on the right path to start a union and then we'll see who`s gonna make the rules!!! Carry on

[BingBong]

I think that the idea of ramp jobs leading to pilot positions is a good idea...it's just that some companies treat their rampies different then other companies. Working the ramp allows you to learn a company and its operations outside the cockpit...so that when you do get your seat in the plane, your operations as a flight crew will be seamless. Honestly I'd rather have a ramp guy/crew man as my f/o anyday.

[blockheater]

It's a catch-22 position... and it will never change: newly minted 250 CPL wonder seeks first job, but has no relevant experience/reputation in the biz.

As a prospective employer, how would you go about hiring folks? Put a 250 wonder in the seat to see if they'll sink/swim? Or, do you put them in a non-flying position to get a sense of their personality/work ethic/abilities? It's not in the employer's best interest to just put folks into the seat, just because they have a piece of paper that says they should. Companies would lose a lot of money in training costs for washouts, quitters, or (God forbid) accidents.

Unfortunately, there are (and always will be) employers at the bottom level that will take advantage of these people. Your task is to learn as much as you can and shape your own future. If you're not feeling like you're getting a fair shot, pack up and move on. However, if this trend continues to repeat itself continously, you just might have to have a good look at yourself and figure out if you really want to be in this business!

In the beginning, we're not entitled nor should we expect to occupy a seat... we gotta earn it. It's sad and not always fair... but true.

Good luck in your search!

[mattedfred]

It's a catch-22 position... and it will never change: newly minted 250 CPL wonder seeks first job, but has no relevant experience/reputation in the biz.

As a prospective employer, how would you go about hiring folks? Put a 250 wonder in the seat to see if they'll sink/swim? Or, do you put them in a non-flying position to get a sense of their personality/work ethic/abilities? It's not in the employer's best interest to just put folks into the seat, just because they have a piece of paper that says they should. Companies would lose a lot of money in training costs for washouts, quitters, or (God forbid) accidents.

"put a 250 wonder in a seat..."

i would assume that any air operator with any scruples would provide all legally mandated as well as additional training as required to operate safely and legally in order to protect their investment.

"Companies would lose a lot of money in training costs for washouts, quitters, or (God forbid) accidents."

any company that is concerned about this may want to rethink their selection process, training regiment and line indoctrination process.

imagine a world where employers spent time and money attempting to plan their staffing levels accordingly, select the best candidate when hiring is required and provide adequate training and line indoctrination to new hires.

just imagine

[blockheater]

"put a 250 wonder in a seat..."

i would assume that any air operator with any scruples would provide all legally mandated as well as additional training as required to operate safely and legally in order to protect their investment.

"Companies would lose a lot of money in training costs for washouts, quitters, or (God forbid) accidents."

any company that is concerned about this may want to rethink their selection process, training regiment and line indoctrination process.

imagine a world where employers spent time and money attempting to plan their staffing levels accordingly, select the best candidate when hiring is required and provide adequate training and line indoctrination to new hires.

just imagine

In a perfect Utopian society, this would work... but unfortunately it seldom happens in real life.

As much as we all aspire to become gainfully employed pilots and want to make a living, the beginnings are often marred with trial/error and success/failure. But, the important thing is to realize that without some base to build on... we may be employable pilots on paper, but we still must build experience from the ground level up. If we were meant to fly "out of the box", we would have had wings!

[mattedfred]

i respectfully disagree

i got my first job over the phone flying a champ on floats with less than 10 hours on floats and a fresh CPL

i was checked out by the CP then began operating the aircraft all on my own

i imagine that i would have been let go or asked if i wanted to just work the dock all summer had i deemed to be sub-par by the CP

perhaps the owner of this operation had more respect for and trust in the decision making abilities of his CP than operators that you are used to

i'm not sure how more time on the dock would have improved my ability to operate the aircraft to the CP's satisfaction

my second job was FO on a metro with 150 more hours then i had when i started my first job

i was not required to work the ramp before being allowed to operate the metro either

i was surprisingly able to learn the ins and outs of the operation quite quickly while i actually operated the aircraft allowing the owner to make of use of my piece of paper that says i can fly and earn an income

[Cat Driver]

I am so thankful that I was fortunate enough to have gotten my start in aviation before this mindset of having to be treated like a moron before you can fly an airplane for someone.

And to think that there are so many who call being a pilot a profession.

[rocco1]

A pilot with only 250 hours should not feel discouragment from the more experienced pilots. Someone is trying, again, to discuss how much money the company should invest to bring an ``inexperienced`` pilot up to a certain level. Please do not forget that Canada is not the only land (skies included) where there are airplanes. With all respect, aviation here is still far from that of other countries. In Europe many pilots with 250 hours have been seen sitting on the right side of airbus, or Boeing. They may be wondering what they can learn and the answer is lots.
What we are limited to in Canada does not fulfill the dream that most of us started with.

[blockheater]

i respectfully disagree

i got my first job over the phone flying a champ on floats with less than 10 hours on floats and a fresh CPL

i was checked out by the CP then began operating the aircraft all on my own...



my second job was FO on a metro with 150 more hours then i had when i started my first job

i was not required to work the ramp before being allowed to operate the metro either

Hey, no worries mattedfred! We have all had different experiences and it looks like you had a great one! But you must agree with me here... timing can be EVERYTHING! Some folks just hit the aviation cycle at the wrong time

[peter]

I would have to agree with blockheater on this one. The ramp is just a step that, in most cases, must be taken in order to get a position in the airplane. I have nothing against someone going the route of instructing as a low time pilot and those that get a small single position or an FO position right out of school, well that's real lucky for them. But for the rest of you a ramp position is what you're going to have to do. Hopefully you can find an operator that will treat you right and follow through with any promises they made to get you there in the first place. Remember that if you accept a job, don't complain about the wage you get unless they cut it after you start. Most employers will tell you what they are going to pay you and what you are going to have to do. You are the one that said yes. If after a while you find it isn't working out, move on, don't whine about it.

As a side note, I find it humorous when people compare our aviation industry to that of other countries. For the most part Canada is a very unique country. Large land mass with a small population. The needs of our country are satisfied differently than others. So there's a 250hr FO on an Airbus in Europe, that's because there's a lot more of that type flying around. There's a hell of a lot more people to move shorter distances over there. You're comparing apples to oranges... ya they're both fruit, but they look different, they taste different and you get different benefits from them.

Oh and that -40 for a year comment is a bit of an exaggeration don't you think seatosky24... I work in the north too and the summers are actually quite nice... but maybe you're further north than I am... I really don't know... not trying to be an ass I just don't like it when guys over exaggerate conditions so there point sounds more extreme.

just my 3 cents... don't worry, I can afford it

Pete

[seatosky24]

Correct, BUT I was just stating that amongst all the stuff I went through, I also endured the cold winters Oct to May. Summer was obviosuly great....

People need to stop nitpicking about the obvious and just answer about the topic.