Class 3+ Instructor for PA28-140/151 @CYTZ

[dcabrown]

I'm looking for a class 3 or higher instructor who has at least 50 hours of time on the Cherokee 140 or Cherokee 151 Warrior who is available to instruct from Toronto Island. (and has at least 500 hours total time overall)

I live downtown Toronto and do not want to train on the 150/172's which are the only aircraft the flights schools use on the island. I'm considering buying an aircraft (PA 28 series) and doing my training ab initio on it (already checked on insurance etc.) - any thoughts on whether this is a good/bad idea?

Any help would be greatly appreciated in both finding an instructor and any tips on buying an aircraft and training on it.

Thanks!
Darryl
dcabrown@hotmail.com

[pilotincommand]

just watch when your buying because you cant spin the PA-28 warrior. So you would end up renting a airplane to spin train and if you end up going the commercial route you would have to rent a airplane that can spin for your commercial ride. I do no you can spin the Cherokee 140 so just keep that in mind when looking to buy.

[ETOPS]

I have a hunch keeping your plane on the island is gonna cost an arm and a leg. Have you looked into it?

[dcabrown]

Thanks for the replies. I have heard of the spin limitations on the Warrior however im looking at owning the potential aircraft for a long period of time so im ok to rent for a few lessons here or there assuming I pursue more advanced training.

The island is about $300/mo for tie down. I think its like $800/mo for a hangar!! (nasty). So yes, it will be a lot more for tie down but I live about 15mins from CYTZ (using transit) and by comparison 90mins from Buttonville so im going to have to bite the bullet on that unfortunately...

[Dagwood]

Why do you want to hire a freelancer?

What do you have against a 150/172?

Would it not be cheaper in the long run to train at the school than run your own plane and pay for tiedowns/ landing fees ect?

3 of the above questions are rhetorical.

[dcabrown]

I need to hire a freelancer because the flights schools at CYTZ dont run any PA28's. Not a single one. Otherwise I wouldnt go through the hassel of finding a plane, arranging financing, finding partners and finding a freelancer

I personally just dont like the Cessnas. I like the low wingers. Nothing against the performance of Cessnas in general.

You are correct, it is cheaper to rent however over the long haul however i would would seek out at least 1 partner to share in the costs.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Dcabrown.

A couple of things you might want to think about.

1) There are a lot of junky aircraft out there. Since you are obviously new to flying if you choose to buy an aircraft I strongly advise you to get some expert advice from a variety of knowledgable folks. The is also a ton of good general aircraft ownship info and the pitfalls there to, on the internet, including several owners groups. I have unfortunately witnessed several horror stories where new pilots bought into a POS aircraft and lost their shirts.

2) If you are going to hire a freelance instructor make sure you get his/her full history and talk to some previous students. There is a subset of instructors who are freelancing because they have been fired from every school they have worked, or are in general total F***ups. If you have a choice go for the instructor who has moved on to charter or airline job and so can bring some real world operating experience to your PPL. Don't be cheap, pay for experience as the "extra" you get from an experienced instructor will worth every penny in the end

[KAG]

I loved the cherokees/warriors. Nice stable planes to train/teach on. Watch your circuits as they do not glide near as well as the cesena products, and being surrounded by nothing but water you will want/need to keep them in tighter.

Have fun.

[Shiny Side Up]

I personally just dont like the Cessnas. I like the low wingers. Nothing against the performance of Cessnas in general.

Don't base your training and your ability to learn on this. Surpisingly many hold this opinion. The high-wing/ low-wing debate that rages on in many private pilot circles is absurd. While its natural to have a stylistic preference, and there's thing which the different designs do better than others, they're irrelevent to the training world.

Personally, whenever some fool touts themselves as a "low wing only pilot" it makes me embarrassed to be known as a pilot.

[Hedley]

I fly biplanes, so I'm not sure where I'm supposed to weigh in on the high wing/low wing thing, but ..

Careful with the early, rectangular "hershey bar" wing Cherokees. Below
about 80 mph (IIRC) they start to develop truly awesome induced drag.
See "back side of the power curve". Not real short field machines, IMHO.

The taper-wing (warrior?) was better.

[Shiny Side Up]

Careful with the early, rectangular "hershey bar" wing Cherokees. Below
about 80 mph (IIRC) they start to develop truly awesome induced drag.
See "back side of the power curve". Not real short field machines, IMHO.

Suffice to say that in general the Cessnas are better short/soft field performers, the Pipers of the Cherokee lineage are a little faster cruisers. While the tapered wing cherokees are a little better in the slow speed range, its not a lot. The chief thing I found the taper winged models were better at was in roll stability, realistically though, the differences were marginal. In the end though, most of the performance differences of the two brands had nothing to do with whether they were high wing or low wing.

William Piper knew what he was doing though when he introduced the Cherokee, its low wing design departure from the previous Piper models was a marketing decision. Given that there are so many "low wing only pilots" out there looks like he was right on the money.

[dcabrown]

Thanks for the responses.

I've been researching the pros and cons of buying for probably 3 years now including belonging to the (now amalgamated) Piper Owners group.

I'm definetly not a "low wing only" pilot, but I find the visibility so much more to my liking overall in the Pipers. I guess the normal argment goes that Pipers take their advantage in terms of visibility in the pattern, Cessnas are better for sightseeing/landings?

I personally just find that in the Cessnas, because your head is so close to the wing it REALLY obscures your upward and lateral visibility. Whereas, in the Piper, because your head is further away from the wing, you still have ok sightlines downwards. All in all I feel a little clostrophobic in the Cessnas relatively speaking due to the wing being a few inches above your head. Again, just personal feeling.

The extra thing Cherokees have going for them is that they seem to be priced 15K or so less than comparable Cessnas.

[dcabrown]

And yes, I have tonnes of POS aircraft out there and not only that, some of the owners are demanding top dollar for them!!

Kinda sad really. Maybe if sellers were more reasonable with their selling prices and/or their willingness to partner with people, we could have more of the fleet actually up and flying rather than just sitting around collecting leaves and rust.

[PAJ]

My 2 cents worth follows.

Did my training and got my PPL on a Cherokee then flew the Warrior for some time. Made the transition to a Cessna 172 and then bought a Piper Archer. There are pros and cons to either type of aircraft but none so overwhelming to dismiss one over the other. If I can be so bold as to offer advice: make your decision about buying an a/c based on the condition, price and history of a specific a/c. You may inadvertently pass by a really good deal because you were looking for one model rather than the other. Don't limit yourself at this point (training phase - where it really shouldn't matter too much). Of course, if you are looking to keep this a/c for some time to come than choosing wisely and within your preferences now will pay dividends later on.

Good luck.

[ETOPS]

I came across an add for a 1/3 share in a Grumman Cheetah today thats being hangered at YTZ. You should look into it. Or are you dead set on a PA28?

[dcabrown]

Dead set on the PA28 for the most part.

I'm not very famaliar with the Grumman Cheetah but I suspect finding instructors who have time on it would be very very difficult.

[Cat Driver]

I'm not very famaliar with the Grumman Cheetah but I suspect finding instructors who have time on it would be very very difficult.

Of all the light single engine airplanes available on the market the Cheetah is the best airplane you can buy period.

Having owned one in my flight school and flown many hours on it it is the only airplane I wish I had kept when I sold everything.

As to finding an instructor to teach you on it that should not be all that difficult as it is as close to idiot proof as you can get.

By the way it will not spin so you will have to rent another airplane for any spin training you may need.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I'm not very famaliar with the Grumman Cheetah but I suspect finding instructors who have time on it would be very very difficult.

Of all the light single engine airplanes available on the market the Cheetah is the best airplane you can buy period.

Having owned one in my flight school and flown many hours on it it is the only airplane I wish I had kept when I sold everything.

As to finding an instructor to teach you on it that should not be all that difficult as it is as close to idiot proof as you can get.

By the way it will not spin so you will have to rent another airplane for any spin training you may need.

+ 1

I own a Grumman AA1B (the two seat predecesor of the Cheetah), have flown all the Grumman varients, and would own nothing else. All of the Grumman aircraft have delightfully light and responsive controls, great visibilty and are at least 15 % faster than anything from Cessna or Piper. They have a very good type club (aya.org) and one of the services the club provides is a list of instructors with Grumman experience. Go take a trial flight in the Cheetah, I guarantee your interest in the spam can Pipers will greatly diminish

[niss]

PA28-140 is a 3 person 4 seater. If you plan on hauling more than 1.5 other people you're gonna be limited. Also there are a few differences when it comes to things that are going to cost you. 140 has they hydro/pneumatic oleos which can costed me $600 to change the seals & scrapers on, you also have the electric fuel pump. I cannot comment on performance against a 172 as I have no real experience with them. On hot days the little window and vents struggle to keep you cool, but with the 172 you can open a window.

The nice thing about the johnson bar vs the electric flaps is the yank on the JB at around 50mph to hop up.

172 you have the 60 degrees of flaps vs the 140s 50.

[Invertago]

PA28-140 is a 3 person 4 seater. If you plan on hauling more than 1.5 other people you're gonna be limited. Also there are a few differences when it comes to things that are going to cost you. 140 has they hydro/pneumatic oleos which can costed me $600 to change the seals & scrapers on, you also have the electric fuel pump. I cannot comment on performance against a 172 as I have no real experience with them. On hot days the little window and vents struggle to keep you cool, but with the 172 you can open a window.

The nice thing about the johnson bar vs the electric flaps is the yank on the JB at around 50mph to hop up.

172 you have the 60 degrees of flaps vs the 140s 50.

40 degrees, but 60 would be fun to try +1 on the johnson bar, much more fun.

There are lots of cheap deals on the small pipers since most flight schools and private pilots want the C172s. If you find an instructor you like but he doesn't have any PA28 time, let him take the plane up a bit to familiarize himself first, its really not much of a transition from a C172, just be sure to show him both door latches

[Hedley]

I suspect finding instructors who have time on it would be very very difficult

Huh? I guess BPF and me don't count - we're both class one instructors - but over the decades I've instructed on pretty well every model of the little grummans that were ever made. I personally prefer the post-LoPresti versions, but all of them are fast, cheap little airplanes that are easy to fly. I really like the canopy and the low wing.

Two thumbs up to the Cheetah and Tiger!

[Bede]

Another vote for the Grumman products. The only big downside is the prop clearance is kind of low, so they're not that great on a lot of grass strips.

[niss]

PA28-140 is a 3 person 4 seater. If you plan on hauling more than 1.5 other people you're gonna be limited. Also there are a few differences when it comes to things that are going to cost you. 140 has they hydro/pneumatic oleos which can costed me $600 to change the seals & scrapers on, you also have the electric fuel pump. I cannot comment on performance against a 172 as I have no real experience with them. On hot days the little window and vents struggle to keep you cool, but with the 172 you can open a window.

The nice thing about the johnson bar vs the electric flaps is the yank on the JB at around 50mph to hop up.

172 you have the 60 degrees of flaps vs the 140s 50.

40 degrees, but 60 would be fun to try +1 on the johnson bar, much more fun.

There are lots of cheap deals on the small pipers since most flight schools and private pilots want the C172s. If you find an instructor you like but he doesn't have any PA28 time, let him take the plane up a bit to familiarize himself first, its really not much of a transition from a C172, just be sure to show him both door latches

Invertago! You Ignorant Slut!

40 degrees of flaps and 2 open doors gives you an extra 20 degrees!

[Shiny Side Up]

Another vote for the Grumman products. The only big downside is the prop clearance is kind of low, so they're not that great on a lot of grass strips.

Its really too bad that there's relatively few of them out there. At one time I think we were Grumman capital as there was six on the field, Travellers, Cheetahs and Tigers. They really beat the pants off the Cherokees. The sliding canopy lets you pretend you're in an open cockpit on those especially hot days (the worst characteristic of the cherokees is the exceedingly poor ventilation on some of the early ones, even in the winter I often taxi with the door open.) The only thing to really watch for is that they're slippery little beasts and those flaps don't do a lot to help you slow down.

Oddly enough, the one with the hail damage was the fastest of the bunch...

[burninggoats]

Oddly enough, the one with the hail damage was the fastest of the bunch...

Same thing with a hail damaged 172... I'm sticking with my golf ball dimple theory