Flight Test Standards Change in April

[FlaplessDork]

I have taken a quick look at the changes. I like the fact that slow flight is now not 5 kts above the stall but at minimum controlable airspeed. Basicly hovering just above stall.

Anyone have any opinions to share on the changes?

[AUGER9]

Do you have a link so the rest of us can look? I haven't heard anything about this but am intrigued.

[FlaplessDork]

It was sent to me by TC.

[Dagwood]

PPL or CPL?

[FlaplessDork]

PPL, CPL, Multi, & Instructor will all change in April. Pilot Examiner Manual is revised as well.

[trey kule]

I like the fact that slow flight is now not 5 kts above the stall but at minimum controlable airspeed

help me out hee. Why do you like this better? I would like to know how you feel this is a better test than a higher speed.
I am not being critical here, I just want to understand the rationale behind that statement, such as how it better tests the students understanding of slow flight characteristics in particular...not the skill involved in actually flying the machine.

[Hedley]

I don't really like the term "slow flight" - what you're really doing is high AOA flight.

A great learning exercise is a high AOA loop, entered at absolute minimum possible airspeed. The entire loop is flown slowly, with a small vertical radius, at a very high angle of attack. Not easy to do.

[Cat Driver]

Hedley I have heard rumors that people have managed to get a nice loop out of a Piper Colt with an entry speed as low as 80 MPH.....

...does that fit a high alpha entry?

[trey kule]

Of course slow flight is high AOA flight. But, for the most part trainers do not have an AOA indicator, and with a slow deacceleration )1Kt/sec), the airspeed indicator provides an indication of when the slow flight regime (high AOA) os emtered

Which is why I wondered what the reasoning for testing slow flight near the limit of the envelope, was better than testing it a few knots faster (less AOA). The reason I asked was that on initial training flights we ask (commercial pilots) to fly the aircraft in the slow flight range. They consistently fly the aircraft around with the stall warning horn beeping in a clean configeration, which tells me that they really do not understand the whole concept of AOA and slow flight.

You looping manuever sounds like a great learning exercise for a PPL student (I am being a little bit facetious here)
I believe it would be more advantegous to introduce slow flight (which is what it used to be called in the Flight training syllabus..not AOA) is introduced as part of the flight for range and endrance, as once the student is at the endurance configuration and inceases the AOA (slows down), the aircraft will require power to maintain level flight. A few knots slower and more power...and the way out of course requires the nose to be lowered, which is one of the main aims of learning about slow flight. The deteriotaion of the airelon control response etc, is unfortunately masked by the design of some trainers and does require the aircraft to be brought down to the limit of the envelope to experience. But I still dont understand why doing a flight test at this limit provides a better test of the real knowledge a student needs.

I will defer to your good judgement about how much better a student understands slow flight from learning how to do a high AOA loop. Never have seen that in a cirriculumn, but then again I am far from current on the latest and best methods for instructing..I just see the results. Not sure I would like to see a new hire who I have never flown with before, when asked to demonstrate slow flight start a loop.

[Cat Driver]

Not sure I would like to see a new hire who I have never flown with before, when asked to demonstrate slow flight start a loop.

That would be radical for sure.

I never could figure out the thinking behind practicing slow flight in twin engine airplanes using power and being right on the edge of a stall.

[trey kule]

Me either Cat, though it seems that if what the first poster stated is correct that is the way...and some obviously think it is a better way.

BTW...I learned to fly in a Colt..I was 60 pounds lighter, 45 years younger, and if memory serves me correctly, on a hot prairie day, 80 MPH was almost the top level flight speed. Climb rate was almost an illusion. You would have to use a calander to get up high enough. The only time we went up high enough to do stalls and spins was in the very early morning...and for nearly 20 years afterward, I never did a spin above 2500AGL. My memory might be all wrong though. I saw one awhile back and realized that even if I could manage to get into the darn thing, I could never reach the master switch.

[Hedley]

If you want to see how a high AOA loop is done, click on this and pay attention at 14 seconds in:

http://www.bulldogairshows.com/video/19 ... o_loop.mpg

I've done hundreds of high AOA loops - stall warning blaring away - in
line-abreast formation, at the top of a no-roll vertical eight - the bottom
loop was done outside (and fast), the top loop was done inside (and very
slowly).

Remember, your exit for the top inside loop was the entry for the push for
second half of the the outside loop to the surface, and you have to get
your gate speed down for the push, otherwise the negative G can be quite
something as the ground comes up. You just won't believe where the telltale
needle on the G-meter is, after you land.

Solo, a vanilla high AOA inside loop by itself is a joke.

[Cat Driver]

80 MPH was almost the top level flight speed.

Your memory is correct the thing cruised around 80 MPH but even at cruise speed I am told the thing was easy to loop.

[jump154]

Is this a sudden changeover thing, or being phased in? How big are the changes?

Reason being I'm almost at my recommend ride, and if the weather does not cooperate my flight test may get pushed into April, and I don't want to have to go back and re-learn everything!

[Stevo226]

After watching that video, what are the odds of your average 152 (non aerobat) or katana being able to do a loop at all, let alone a high aoa loop?

[Cat Driver]

what are the odds of your average 152 (non aerobat) or katana being able to do a loop at all,

Exactly the same as the aerobat version, except it is not certified for it.

[ETOPS]

As of right now only the Multi has been updated on their site. For those interested the changes are:

1. For admission to the flight test, the recommending instructor no longer certifies that the candidate has underdone training in which an actual in-flight engine shutdown, propeller feathering and restart and unfeathering. The instructor certifies that the training was conducted in accordance with the Flight Instructor Guide – Multi-Engine Class Rating – Aeroplane (TP11575E).

2. An “Application for Endorsement of a Rating” form is not required for admission to the flight test. An application may only be presented to an examiner holding Authorised Person’s authority after the successful completion of the flight test.

3. Errors and deviations are defined and incorporated into a revised version of the 4-Point Marking Scale.

4. Ex. 12 – Emergency Procedures: Vital action checks are to be followed-up with the appropriate checklist once the situation is under control.

5. The sample recommendation letters are amended to reflect the changes expressed in item 1, above.

So no more in flight engine shutdown. That should please a few people.
Is TC reading this forum and taking notes?

[Cat Driver]

So no more in flight engine shutdown.

They never could force you to shut one down, however it is refreshing to see them admit the practice had to be changed.

That should please a few people.

That should please everyone, I can not imagine why anyone would want to knowingly create an emergency situation when one did not exist.

[BTD]

If you want to see how a high AOA loop is done, click on this and pay attention at 14 seconds in:

http://www.bulldogairshows.com/video/19 ... o_loop.mpg

Jim LeRoy? I remember watching that routine back on one of the sites like youtube 7 years ago. Awesome. Aerobatics aren't my thing but I can appreciate skill and a good show. And a little aerobatics every now and again isn't bad.

Shame http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_LeRoy

[Hedley]

Is TC reading this forum

They surely do. I have been contacted several times by people here who have been charged by Enforcement as a result of photos and videos that were posted here.

what are the odds of your average 152 (non aerobat) or katana being able to do a loop at all

I am sure Bob Hoover could do it easily, despite his puzzling diagnosis of "cognitive dissonance" which magically went into remission after both houses of Congress got interested in his case and started asking questions. You may recall his airshow routine in a twin commander.

Aerobatics aren't my thing

Sigh. From my perspective, aerobatics isn't anything special or unusual - it's a perfectly normal part of flight, like a crosswind landing. From a physics standpoint, nothing really special occurs past 60 degrees of bank.

When I am upside down, with almost +1G on, both me and the aircraft are experiencing exactly the same forces as we do in straight and level flight, with pretty much the same AOA.

I frequently use a 90 degree banked sideslip on short final if I am a bit high, which is actually how I like to approach, with the power off, so I am not power-dependent to make the runway.

A 90 degree sideslip does not involve any particularly unusual loads on either the pilot or the aircraft, and allows me to actually see the runway on final, which improves safety. Frankly, it is far easier on the aircraft than a typical student pilot landing, which personally I might find to be typically far more exciting!

Gene Soucy used to do snap rolls on final in his single-seat Pitts to lose energy. No big deal.

[AEROBAT]

I have found most stall horns go off well before the wing is actually stalled. A perfect training AC should not be equiped with a stall horn, instead the student should learn the real clues of an impending stall. Flight at minimum controllable airspeed would be a much better test.

I think the change is a good one.

[BTD]

Aerobatics aren't my thing

Sigh. From my perspective, aerobatics isn't anything special or unusual - it's a perfectly normal part of flight, like a crosswind landing. From a physics standpoint, nothing really special occurs past 60 degrees of bank.

When I am upside down, with almost +1G on, both me and the aircraft are experiencing exactly the same forces as we do in straight and level flight, with pretty much the same AOA.

I frequently use a 90 degree banked sideslip on short final if I am a bit high, which is actually how I like to approach, with the power off, so I am not power-dependent to make the runway.

A 90 degree sideslip does not involve any particularly unusual loads on either the pilot or the aircraft, and allows me to actually see the runway on final, which improves safety. Frankly, it is far easier on the aircraft than a typical student pilot landing, which personally I might find to be typically far more exciting!

Gene Soucy used to do snap rolls on final in his single-seat Pitts to lose energy. No big deal.

I'm not sure what the above has to do with my comment?

I simply said that aerobatics aren't my thing. I never said they were special or unusual. Simply that I prefer other aspects of aviation more, on an everyday basis. And yes, I have done some basic aerobatics (in an aerobatic airplane, with an aerobatic class 1). Some people prefer drag racing, others NASCAR, and some rally or formula 1. Sigh.

BTD

[. ._]

And doing aerobatics makes you feel like you're gonna hurl. I could see people not liking that too much.

Sigh.

-istp

[Hedley]

doing aerobatics makes you feel like you're gonna hurl

I suppose some women might say the same thing about sex, but I'm afraid I'm not about to give up either

If it makes you want to hurl, you're probably doing it wrong. This likely applies to both aerobatics and sex.

[Cat Driver]

If it makes you want to hurl, you're probably doing it wrong. This likely applies to both aerobatics and sex.

Sometimes becoming sick while performing a task is due to visual and other senses issues, try finding a better looking better smelling woman.