Saying yes

[matt foley]

Just a nod to the 99% of pilots who say yes. Can you do a full days work and return the airplane in good order? Yes. Can you use your skill and knowledge to maximize the earning potential on every flight? Yep. Are you doing everything each time to keep the company profitable while keeping up a safe operation? Yeah. These are the pilots I fly with.

[Cat Driver]

These are the pilots I fly with.

Even if you are aware they fly over loaded, bust minimums in IMC, fly with known mechanical defects because they " think " it is safe...etc...?

[Shiny Side Up]

Are you doing everything each time to keep the company profitable while keeping up a safe operation?

IF its the 99% who think this way, then we have problems. Really bad serious problems. You don't just "keep up" a safe operation. Profit and good work practices aren't trade offs to one another, its not a balancing act.

[tca]

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no

I don't know how much more I can say on this matter. By all means, say Yes. It's your job to give the maximum earning potential, by keeping within the limits of your aircraft and Wx. When I work, I will do everything that I can to get the maximum load out of my aircraft, and I let my agents know how much we can take. They know and respect that when I give them a number, it's not negotiable and it's not flexible, and they make it work. When it comes to bad Wx days, unless I am approach banned, I will do the approach, take it to the numbers, and make every effort I can to make it work; but I won't bust the minima. My company respects that; from the sounds of things they may be in the minority for 703 operators, but if more pilots adopt this philosophy, then the shady companies will have no choice but to follow suit. As somebody in the other thread said, it's about respect -- you as the pilot's respect for the rules and the numbers that the engineers and test pilots who designed your aircraft came up with; and your company's respect for you as a pilot to operate within the design envelope and within the law.

[ScudRunner]

Look I need that profit sharing cheque, I always say yes!

Everyone is jealous of the car I drive, I just tell them I paid for it with my getting in bonus and they should learn how to fly and they could buy one too.

[iflyforpie]

Just a nod to the 99% of pilots who say yes. Can you do a full days work and return the airplane in good order? Yes. Can you use your skill and knowledge to maximize the earning potential on every flight? Yep. Are you doing everything each time to keep the company profitable while keeping up a safe operation? Yeah. These are the pilots I fly with.

One pound overweight, one pound under fuel, one snag un-deferred, one foot below minimums. This is the difference between a good pilot and a bad one. I don't care if you've got away with it 100 times. I don't care if joe-blow down the street got approval to operate this way. Either you get approval, you unload stuff, you add more fuel, you get the plane fixed, wait for better weather, or you don't fly. There are a ton of these 'yes' pilots who didn't make it home and took many with them who expected a professional to get them to their destination safely.

I don't know. Maybe I am spoiled where I work, but I would tell anybody who told me to break the rules to piss off.

[crankedup]

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:10 am
Posts: 2667
Location: The Misty Mountains... matt foley wrote:
Just a nod to the 99% of pilots who say yes. Can you do a full days work and return the airplane in good order? Yes. Can you use your skill and knowledge to maximize the earning potential on every flight? Yep. Are you doing everything each time to keep the company profitable while keeping up a safe operation? Yeah. These are the pilots I fly with.


One pound overweight, one pound under fuel, one snag un-deferred, one foot below minimums. This is the difference between a good pilot and a bad one. I don't care if you've got away with it 100 times. I don't care if joe-blow down the street got approval to operate this way. Either you get approval, you unload stuff, you add more fuel, you get the plane fixed, wait for better weather, or you don't fly. There are a ton of these 'yes' pilots who didn't make it home and took many with them who expected a professional to get them to their destination safely.

I don't know. Maybe I am spoiled where I work, but I would tell anybody who told me to break the rules to piss off.

And your point is...

[Randleman]

Just a nod to the 99% of pilots who say yes. Can you do a full days work and return the airplane in good order? Yes. Can you use your skill and knowledge to maximize the earning potential on every flight? Yep. Are you doing everything each time to keep the company profitable while keeping up a safe operation? Yeah. These are the pilots I fly with.

I don't see anywhere in here "Can you fly 1 pound (or more) overweight? Can you fly 1 gallon of fuel too little? Can you fly 1 foot below minimums just to get in?"

I may not be the most experienced pilot, but this to me just sounds like a good positive "for the company" attitude. Why are we all assuming this means "doing things that are illegal." Stop equating "helping the company" with "doing things that are illegal."

[bigredone]

Strange isn't it? A post is made about actually doing the job without mention of doing anything wrong and blam, its' all "your breaking the rules! You're a scum bag! You are killing babies!". I agree with the original post. No one that I have worked with would admit to doing it any other way.

BRO

[iflyforpie]

Was this thread not in response to the 'saying no' thread just a few topics down? Given the previous responses I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks it was coincidental.

If it isn't related to that thread, what's your point? I don't know of too many pilots who spent thousands of dollars on flight training, burned hundreds of dollars of fuel on road trips, and finally got a job; but when the boss told them to fly somewhere they said 'no' just because. I'm pretty sure there are more instances of where a pilot should have said 'no' instead of 'yes'.

If it was in response to that thread, then I stand by my comments.

[Brewhouse]

I find alot of pilots now days look for any excuse not to fly. It makes me wonder why they became pilots in the first place. Quit the constant complaining and do your job. If there is a legitamate concern that is one thing but the chicken $hit excusses that I hear and see make my head spin.

I'll give an example before you all tear my head off.

Pilot lands Chieftan one altenater u/s. Said pilot snags aircraft. Maintenence has new altenater shipped overnight to base. There is a trip booked, so maintenence defers snag with stipulation VFR only.

No big deal pretty standard

Weather is severe clear and vis unlimited pilot declines trip, because he is one of the say no guys, that reads threads like this and dicides it is the bible. He doesn't know why he is declining the trip, he just thinks that something must be wrong. Company next door gets charter, and the cycle continues.

[Cat Driver]

We will soon be able to determine if this thread was started to support the thread on what to do when asked to break the rules.

Matt can clear it up real fast by answering the question I posed right after he started this thread.

[iflyforpie]

Pilot lands Chieftan one altenater u/s. Said pilot snags aircraft. Maintenence has new altenater shipped overnight to base. There is a trip booked, so maintenence defers snag with stipulation VFR only.

No big deal pretty standard

Weather is severe clear and vis unlimited pilot declines trip, because he is one of the say no guys, that reads threads like this and dicides it is the bible. He doesn't know why he is declining the trip, he just thinks that something must be wrong. Company next door gets charter, and the cycle continues.

Non-MEL aircraft make snag deferral a grey area, since it is the PIC who has the final say on whether he feels the aircraft is airworthy. I have seen more than a few snags deferred that were not just unsafe, but illegal. I have a feeling he was playing it safe.

If I was flying, I would have taken the aircraft. But I've never had to deal with this situation because my company always keeps a spare alternator in stock and changing one on a Ho takes all of one hour from work order to sign off. Maybe the loss of a charter will encourage the company to be a bit more proactive in maintaining their aircraft.

[Cat Driver]

Weather is severe clear and vis unlimited pilot declines trip, because he is one of the say no guys, that reads threads like this and dicides it is the bible.

When you are in a position where you say no to a flight you should have a legitimate reason to say no and be able to show exactly why it is either unsafe or illegal.

Maybe we should not have these threads about when to say no in case we educate a generation of pilots who are unable to fly because it is so easy to say no?

[ei ei owe]

Man, this thread turned negative really quick.

I support the "yes" pilot mentality when operations are done safely and pilots come from an educated pool of crews. Weigh out the risks associated with your situation and make an informed decision rather than a personal one.

The alternator example simply highlights a lack of knowledge and experience however one cannot get on the pilot's case for not going if the pilot did not know any better. If crews have MEL training, good airplane systems knowledge and some experience, there is no reason not to fly with a broken alternator/generator in the scenerio described.

[Cat Driver]

Of course not.

The problem in such a case is pilot ignorance.

Read my signature at the bottom of my posts again..carefully...

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no

Then read this part.

After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

[Doc]

I can say "yes" to all of the above. But, it's MY ball game. Can I say "no"? Yes.
But, I'm not "you". Cat Driver isn't "you"....only "you" can know when to say "yes". Or, "no".

[AEROBAT]

The problem is that what is safe isn't always legal and what is legal is not automaticaly safe. It is perfectly legal for a private pilot to fly single engine IFR in the mountains at night in crappy weather, provided the pilot has the rating and currency and the plane is accordingly equiped. Not many would consider it to be safe allthough it is legal.

[Doc]

Legal ain't always safe
Safe ain't always legal

I've been beating that drum for years
Nobody ever listens
Your example is a good one

[snoopy]

Well this is certainly an interesting statement bigredone:

Strange isn't it? A post is made about actually doing the job without mention of doing anything wrong and blam, its' all "your breaking the rules! You're a scum bag! You are killing babies!". I agree with the original post. No one that I have worked with would admit to doing it any other way.

Care to clarify? Or was some tongue in cheek intentional?

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I find alot of pilots now days look for any excuse not to fly. It makes me wonder why they became pilots in the first place. Quit the constant complaining and do your job. If there is a legitamate concern that is one thing but the chicken $hit excusses that I hear and see make my head spin.

I'll give an example before you all tear my head off.

Pilot lands Chieftan one altenater u/s. Said pilot snags aircraft. Maintenence has new altenater shipped overnight to base. There is a trip booked, so maintenence defers snag with stipulation VFR only.

No big deal pretty standard

Weather is severe clear and vis unlimited pilot declines trip, because he is one of the say no guys, that reads threads like this and dicides it is the bible. He doesn't know why he is declining the trip, he just thinks that something must be wrong. Company next door gets charter, and the cycle continues.

The problem can be a lot deeper than no electricity coming from the alternator. I once had one fall off after the bracket fractured and it ended up hanging very close to the ring gear. It would have been a very bad day if the alternator had fouled the ring gear just as I was lifting off. I have also had an alternator develop an internal short and literally melt down. I was very lucky there was no fire as the alternator was hot enough to scorch the paint on the cowling.

In your example you imply that maintainance looked at the airplane. If they had not as a minimum pulled the cowls and checked that the alternator was physicaly secure, turned freely and then disconnected and safed the wiring, than flying the aircraft would IMO be an example of gross stupidity. However it is still a dumb idea to fly the aircraft because the next time the outfit gets audited and TC inspectors see the deferred snag and then a flight they are quite likely to ask "under what authority was this snag defered , especially as it is an item which is covered in the POH emergency procedures section ?" I bet I can predict the company management answer........ it will be " Well it is ultimatly the PIC's responsibilty to accept the airplane...."

However the loss of the charter could also have been avoided if Company management had ;

1) Properly equiped their " Maintainance" base with a supply of "Maintainance spares" for common items, like a spare alternator, and/or

2) Gotten off their asses and applied for an approved MEL program from TC

Either 1 or 2 (or preferably both) would have turned this into a non event
So explain to me again how the loss of the charter was directly caused by a lazy pilot ?

[KAG]

I find alot of pilots now days look for any excuse not to fly. It makes me wonder why they became pilots in the first place. Quit the constant complaining and do your job. If there is a legitamate concern that is one thing but the chicken $hit excusses that I hear and see make my head spin.

I'll give an example before you all tear my head off.

Pilot lands Chieftan one altenater u/s. Said pilot snags aircraft. Maintenence has new altenater shipped overnight to base. There is a trip booked, so maintenence defers snag with stipulation VFR only.

No big deal pretty standard

Weather is severe clear and vis unlimited pilot declines trip, because he is one of the say no guys, that reads threads like this and dicides it is the bible. He doesn't know why he is declining the trip, he just thinks that something must be wrong. Company next door gets charter, and the cycle continues.

Brewhouse
What was the pilots experience level? The reason I ask is not to slam him/her or you just bringing to light that maybe it wasn’t the AvCanada thread, but that your pilot was nervous. Doing a VFR trip on one gen is not a big deal. We both know that, maybe your pilot doesn’t. If that’s the case IMHO a quick training trip is in order.

Like it or not your not only an employer you’re a continuation of their education.

[Shiny Side Up]

The problem can be a lot deeper than no electricity coming from the alternator. I once had one fall off after the bracket fractured and it ended up hanging very close to the ring gear. It would have been a very bad day if the alternator had fouled the ring gear just as I was lifting off. I have also had an alternator develop an internal short and literally melt down. I was very lucky there was no fire as the alternator was hot enough to scorch the paint on the cowling.

I've had two catastrophic alternator failures during my time. On one the bearing gave out during the runup with a horrendous noise, melted the belt in the second or two it took to shut the engine down. Upon examination the case of it was still a little bit cherry red from the friction. Another blew itself to pieces when the pulley wheel flew apart. Pieces of that wheel preforated the cowling in a variety of places, and luckily enough managed not to hit anything critical. That one occured in flight, fortunately was near an airport.

[bigredone]

When I say "no one I have worked with would do otherwise"(referring to the original post) I mean just that. How could I be around this long without working with one of the thousands of pilots refusing to do their job just because they "can" say no? Simple, they are an infinitesimal minority but on this forum have a loud voice. Does anyone think that someone running around shaking their head saying no to everything will be around long? Of coarse not. When you are new you say yes based on your limited experience and either it works out(90% of the time) or it doesn't(see "note to self, never again!"). As you gain experience you say yes because you know it's the right decision. That's just my opinion of coarse...actually my observation and I think I have at least average observation skills.

[GoinNowhereFast]

I don't think anybody here is going to say no to a perfectly safe and legal airplane on a clear day.
Yes, everybody has their "oh shit" moments and learned from them. You don't need to have "who put that tree in the clouds" moment to realize it's not smart to bust minimums though. The trick, especially as a low time pilot, is to learn from the mistakes of others as well as your own.

Is it safe to fly an airplane with one alternator? Yes, 99% of singles and some twins only have one. Now you need to figure out what is happening with the broken alternator, enough examples have been to explain why.