Double Tap - WTF

[Liquid Charlie]

On Saturday (20/03), a man was shot and killed by an Albany County deputy sheriff following an altercation at Albany Airport (ALB). The unidentified male was challenged by a Police Officer, after being spotted inside a secure, fenced parking lot. The male ignored the officer, and allegedly threw a piece of concrete at the officer. He then charged at the officer, and raised his arm from behind his back in a forward motion. The officer double tapped the suspect, and was later pronounced dead.

Has the whole world gone Hollywood -- wonder what his ethnic background was --

[Lost Lake]

Liquid Charlie. What's your point? A guy is in a secure area. He is challenged by a peace officer. He ignores him/her, throws something at him and then charges at the officer in a menacing manner (potential weapon behind his back?). WTF. Without being there, I would probably have done the same. Aren't you following the Toronto 18 trials?

[mathewc]

I think the issue was more with the wording of the article rather than the actual events.

[Slats]

Good god, don't let cpl_atc see this!

[midwingcrisis]

March 21, 2010 at 7:47 pm by Christen Gowan
From reporter Dennis Yusko:

An Albany County Sheriff’s deputy shot and killed an unidentified man on Watervliet Shaker Road just Saturday at around 12:35 a.m. after the man tried to attack the officer, police said.

Vincent P. Igoe, a deputy assigned to the Albany International Airport, shot the pedestrian twice in the torso in a darkened commercial area off airport grounds near 768 Watervliet Shaker Road, county Sheriff James Campbell said at a news conference in the sheriff’s Albany office on Eagle Street.

Authorities do not know the shooting victim’s name, but described him as Hispanic, in his mid-30s, 5-foot-4 and 120 pounds. He was pronounced dead at Albany Medical Center Hospital at 1:22 a.m.

Igoe was doing security checks around the airport’s perimeter when he noticed the man walking by himself near Northway Lane, law enforcement officials said. The deputy got out of his vehicle and asked the man what he was doing. After initially ignoring Igoe, the subject threw a baseball-size piece of concrete, just missing Igoe, Campbell said.

Standing about 15 feet away from the deputy, the man then lunged at Igoe with one hand in his pocket and the other behind his back, police said. Igoe stepped back and shot the man after he raised the arm behind his back, Campbell said.

“There was no weapon found” on the man, Campbell said. Police later found a second piece of concrete in his clothes, Undersheriff Craig Apple said.

An autopsy was done Saturday.


Apple said police are investigating whether the man may be an illegal immigrant or knew two illegal immigrants involved in a dispute in Latham on Friday. Colonie Police arrested a 40-year-old man named Francusco O. Ramirez at the Latham Village Apartments Friday on a felony assault charge for allegedly stabbing an unidentified victim with a kitchen knife several times. Police did not have more information on that case, and did not know if Ramirez was an American citizen. The two men involved in the assault told police that they did not know the man who was shot, Apple said.

Campbell said Saturday morning’s shooting marked the first time in his more than 20 years as sheriff that a deputy had opened fire on a member of the public.

Igoe, 35, was taken to the hospital and released. The 11-year veteran of the force is “shook up,” but not expected to face discipline over the incident.

“Obviously, officer safety is number one,” Apple said.

[iflyforpie]

Shouldn't this be in Misc?

Some of us are eating our breakfast...

[172PIC]

can't help but wonder if a taser could have SAVED a life here...

[Doc]

Way too many Police are too quick to use deadly force without first assessing the threat. I'm not buying into the "he might have had a weapon" line of thinking. More thought should be giving to the "he might not understand due to circumstances I'm not aware of...." line of thought. A little common sense would ask "if he had a weapon, why would he hurl a chunk of concrete.....?" But, I guess it was the Cop's word against, well, it was the Cop's word against....
I'm not a "warm and fuzzy" guy here...if there's a threat, by all means have at 'er. But make bloody sure there is a THREAT first.

This Cop did not see a weapon, and took a life....lock his ass up.

[mcrit]

Way too many Police are too quick to use deadly force without first assessing the threat. I'm not buying into the "he might have had a weapon" line of thinking......

Care to pin on a badge and show them how it's done Doc?

[Redneck_pilot86]

He was probably a Zombie...you ALWAYS double tap a zombie.

[Troubleshot]

Way too many Police are too quick to use deadly force without first assessing the threat. I'm not buying into the "he might have had a weapon" line of thinking. More thought should be giving to the "he might not understand due to circumstances I'm not aware of...." line of thought. A little common sense would ask "if he had a weapon, why would he hurl a chunk of concrete.....?" But, I guess it was the Cop's word against, well, it was the Cop's word against....
I'm not a "warm and fuzzy" guy here...if there's a threat, by all means have at 'er. But make bloody sure there is a THREAT first.

This Cop did not see a weapon, and took a life....lock his ass up.

Yeah good thing these cops "waited to see a weapon"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X14ID3zybSk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXem0mACyAU

We are all so smart sitting behind our computers drinking coffee and not getting shot at, or punched, or hit with bats, etc....

[Dust Devil]

Way too many Police are too quick to use deadly force without first assessing the threat. I'm not buying into the "he might have had a weapon" line of thinking. More thought should be giving to the "he might not understand due to circumstances I'm not aware of...." line of thought. A little common sense would ask "if he had a weapon, why would he hurl a chunk of concrete.....?" But, I guess it was the Cop's word against, well, it was the Cop's word against....
I'm not a "warm and fuzzy" guy here...if there's a threat, by all means have at 'er. But make bloody sure there is a THREAT first.

This Cop did not see a weapon, and took a life....lock his ass up.

I'm not sure how much time an officer has to send the situation to a committee. The guy already signaled hostile intentions by chucking a piece of concrete. He could have had a knife behind him and if the officer didn't have access to a taser his options were limited. It's always unfortunate when lives are taken but sometimes in the moment these things happen. At least the officer gets to see his family another day.

Could it have been handled better? Probably. A shot to the leg would have stopped the guy until back up could arrive. but that hind sight can be a bitch.

[looproll]

A shot to the leg would have stopped the guy until back up could arrive. but that hind sight can be a bitch.

There is no such thing as just shooting someone in the leg to slow them down for so many reasons. I'm amazed at how many times I see this line. I used to believe it myself. In a tense, adrenaline soaked situation I will be able to aim my pistol exactly at the suspects leg while he is in motion and it will surely "slow him down"? No police officer is taught to shoot a person in the leg to slow them down. Once you have drawn your pistol, it gets pointed at the centre of mass. There is no "shoot to wound" philosophy because it doesn't work very well and can end up with the police officer losing their life.

[SuperchargedRS]

Way too many Police are too quick to use deadly force without first assessing the threat. I'm not buying into the "he might have had a weapon" line of thinking. More thought should be giving to the "he might not understand due to circumstances I'm not aware of...." line of thought. A little common sense would ask "if he had a weapon, why would he hurl a chunk of concrete.....?" But, I guess it was the Cop's word against, well, it was the Cop's word against....
I'm not a "warm and fuzzy" guy here...if there's a threat, by all means have at 'er. But make bloody sure there is a THREAT first.

This Cop did not see a weapon, and took a life....lock his ass up.

Yeah good thing these cops "waited to see a weapon"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X14ID3zybSk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXem0mACyAU

We are all so smart sitting behind our computers drinking coffee and not getting shot at, or punched, or hit with bats, etc....

They chose that job, cant b!tch when they have to take crap from people. If you are scared of getting shot/punched/etc maybe you should be sitting behind a computer drinking coffee.

And your right, dont wait to see a weapon, if the driver seems off, is angry, asks too many questions, isnt white, has a record, looks at you funny hang em' high right???

One must remember that when a peace officer disturbs the peace of society buy killing unarmed civilians on reflex alone without much thought, they cease to be a peace officer.

[Troubleshot]

I don't those officers in the videos I posted were scared in anyway, in fact cops gave the crooks the benifit of the doubt up until the point they were pumped full of lead for no reason.

My point is that our society is so messed up that these men and women out on patrol have no choice to be on edge, for Christ sakes most of these shootings occur during simple traffic violations.

The case in question at the airport, the guy did have a weapon and was trying to harm the police officer...so in the case in question what should the cop do? wait to be possibly shot first? or get hit with something to diable him so that now he cannot protect himself or the public?

These are CRIMINALS...the cop didn't take out a mother nursing her baby on a park bench....

[Dust Devil]

And your right, dont wait to see a weapon, if the driver seems off, is angry, asks too many questions, isnt white, has a record, looks at you funny hang em' high right???

When did this happen?

[Meatservo]

I think you guys are missing the point of the original post... The reporter writing the article actually used the term "double tapped". Liquid Charlie was commenting on the way ghetto-speak has penetrated popular lexicon to the point where it's being used by reporters in print. Hip-Hop strikes again. Yo. Liquid Charlie be axin 'yall what you fink of dat whack language, not whether 'yall wulda double tapped the mofo yo' fine selfs.

[Siddley Hawker]

That'll teach the sucker to bring a rock to a gun fight.

[grimey]

Did any of you idiots who think the cop is in the wrong bother reading the article? The guy threw a "baseball sized" piece of concrete at the officer (assault with a deadly weapon), and lunged at him while reaching for his pocket and behind his back. Obviously the officer had no reason to fear that the guy had less than the best intentions at heart...

Should the officer wait until he gets shot before he reacts?

And police officers always shoot for center of visible mass. If the guy gets shot in the leg, it's either because that's all that was visible, or the officer missed his target. There is no "shooting to wound", especially with someone who's lunging at you from close range. Search for "21 ft rule" for why.

The officer did exactly as he was trained to, and exactly as he should have. If you attack a guy armed with a gun, expect to be shot. Especially if you have a weapon, or appear to reach for one.

[grimey]

And your right, dont wait to see a weapon, if the driver seems off, is angry, asks too many questions, isnt white, has a record, looks at you funny hang em' high right???

One must remember that when a peace officer disturbs the peace of society buy killing unarmed civilians on reflex alone without much thought, they cease to be a peace officer.

1: he was armed and attacked the cop.
2: nice strawman.

[The Old Fogducker]

Oh yeah ... well I saw a movie once where the cop was able to shoot the gun 'outta the bad guy's hand ... why didn't this cop do that?

Because real life isn't a Hollywood movie or an episode of the Annie Oakley TV series, that's why.

What stunned idiots some of you guys are, with zero training in dealing with firearms for self defence, you've got the situation all figured out that the assailant didn't need to be shot. Lets do the typical thing and take maybe 5 months of hearings to review the actions of an officer over the span of 15 seconds, that went "pear shaped" in the last 5 seconds and because of the agressive action of someone, they ended up dead by their own misadventure.

Likely you don't realize it, but inside 20 feet, a knife is considered to be more dangerous to the defender than a gun.

Most of us as pilots have been close to death at one time or another in our careers. We are survivors, and vow that we will never put ourselves in that position again. So why can't you identify with being a survivor?

When a gun is drawn in a combat situation, there is only one reason for it ... you are ready to kill the individual, because in an instant ... the blink of an eye ... it can be him or you ... and if you want to survive, you'll kill the other guy ... and do it as fast as possible so the threat to your life is ended asap. If the assailant is armed with a knife, you can be dead from the stab wound caused by his body falling forward into you even though he has been hit multiple times in a vital area.

I was taught to fire twice immediately, assess the threat for a fraction of a second, and then continue firing until the other guy is on the ground and not moving. Then too, most of the time I carried a 9 mm Sub Machine Gun (SMG) with a 30 round magazine, not a little 6 or 7 round pop-gun.

Heaven forbid that you, or I should ever find ourselves in that terrible position, but I assure you ... based upon my Army training, it will be the other guy that doesn't go home that night.

I am not short of sympathy for the family of the deceased who acted to bring this upon himself, but my heart also goes out to the shooter, who will carry that burden forever.

The Old Fogducker

[172PIC]

Cops should absolutely have the right to defend themselves which is why I'm a strong advocate for them having tasers. It's an intermediate non lethal force option that could have spared the use of deadly force in this situation. Yes people do unfortunately get killed from being tased but the chances are a whole lot better than a bullet...

[ajet32]

Ah @#$! i can't even respond to this sheit without getting the thread closed. I am all about security and such, but a big BUT for those who know me wtf was this cop doing killing an unarmed guy who threw a rock at him. We used to have daily rock throwing matches at the UN base in Bukavu, hell in Kalemie and in Nyala too. Nobody shot at the rock throwers there and for the most part they had AK 47's the favourite weapon of the world wide terrorist etc etc etc!!!
@#$! people grow up!! It was a friggin rock !!

[Nark]

Anybody in here ever been shot at?

No?

Then shut the hell up with your what-if's.

[ragbagflyer]

I think you guys are missing the point of the original post... The reporter writing the article actually used the term "double tapped". Liquid Charlie was commenting on the way ghetto-speak has penetrated popular lexicon to the point where it's being used by reporters in print. Hip-Hop strikes again

Not necessarily. Look up the history of the phrase.