Pascan ATR development ?

[DeltaHotel]

Hey all !

It's been a while since I've heard any news ...

Any developments on Pascan's acquisition of ATRs ? I had heard from employees and management that this rumour was solid and it was going forward but that was quite a while ago ...

Any further ? Is the project dead in the water ?

[yousuck]

Ya... I think they are suppose to have 2 A380 by the end of the year!!

[sanjet]

Hey all !

It's been a while since I've heard any news ...

Any developments on Pascan's acquisition of ATRs ? I had heard from employees and management that this rumour was solid and it was going forward but that was quite a while ago ...

Any further ? Is the project dead in the water ?

Wouldn't be surprised. In my opinion, they look to be the next contender to try the Quebec North Shore route once the bid goes out from the gov't. Would be a great aircraft for that route in terms of pax/cargo combi. Head boss seems to know what he's doing, nice little company that's steadily growing even in these rough times.

[tsgas]

Just not a great airplane in icing.

[CL-Skadoo!]

How much time do you have in the ATR, TS? I've got 1500 hours on it, and I've never encountered any sort of issues with icing. I find its anti-icing systems to be among the best I have worked with.

[whiteguy]

Just not a great airplane in icing.

Yes, nothing has changed since the crash almost 20 years ago!!!

[.......]

Just not a great airplane in icing.

I hope for the guys at Pascan that they do get ATRs...Great, great airplane!

I logged about 3500hrs in them during my time at Inter-Canadien and I lived through the Roselawn crash crisis.

Totally blown out of proportion IMO... Firstly, the ATRs certified in the States weren't as well equipped for de-icing as ours were. Secondly, any turboprop encountering the type of icing that was supposedly flown through in Roselawn would have had difficulties. Some conditions just require a hot wing.

I think most ATR detractors have never had the chance to fly them, period.

[MCT]

When and if they get the ATR's, hopefully the salaries will be better than now!!

[yourpal]

According to the article below, Pascan is investing $25 million on four ATR's, plus a new hangar and updated terminal at their CYHU base.

http://lapresseaffaires.cyberpresse.ca/ ... cueil_POS6

[getaway]

According to rumors, there will be a 3 year training bond of 36 000$.

Does anyone know if this bond is standard at Calm Air, First Air or Westwind ??

[onspeed]

no bond at first air, first year wage here would be high forties.

[hamstandard]

Just not a great airplane in icing.

I hope for the guys at Pascan that they do get ATRs...Great, great airplane!

I logged about 3500hrs in them during my time at Inter-Canadien and I lived through the Roselawn crash crisis.

Totally blown out of proportion IMO... Firstly, the ATRs certified in the States weren't as well equipped for de-icing as ours were. Secondly, any turboprop encountering the type of icing that was supposedly flown through in Roselawn would have had difficulties. Some conditions just require a hot wing.

I think most ATR detractors have never had the chance to fly them, period.

Some can criticize and some can give accolades, but the best thing to do is look at the safety record...

At least 4 major icing related accidents for the ATR and numerous incidents. The Dash-8 meanwhile has few or no icing related accidents. Number of incidents unknown.

I would suggest that the ATR is less forgiving of errors made while in icing conditions based on the accident history.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDn-01zPRS8

Here is a remake from actual CVR and FDR on a Cuban icing crash from cruise altitude. It is hard to read the exact airspeed and see what bugs are set but it is very important not to get too slow in heavy icing. I believe they wanted lower but had lower traffic nearby.

The sound at 4:09 is called a Cavalry Charge which happens when the autopilot disconnects. This will happen automatically when there is a stall. In this case it happens a few seconds prior to the stall warning which is known as the Cricket. It sounds for most of the way down which shows how you can be in a very nose down attitude and still be in a stall. I would expect that there is an instinctive tendency to pull the control column in this situation. There are also several single chimes on the way down which could be for various reasons. I'm not sure why they sounded here. Also, if there is a stall warning in flight, part of the recovery procedure is to select flaps to an intermediate position. I don't know if that was done here.

There are Memory Items for encounters with severe icing. including the targetting of higher minimum airspeeds, autopilot disconnect, more engine power and advising ATC. ATR considers Severe icing encounters to be an emergency. It is difficult for me to see which of these items were accomlished. However, in trying to learn a lesson from this situation, declaring an emergency and descending without clearance may have been helpful.

[fish4life]

According to rumors, there will be a 3 year training bond of 36 000$.

Does anyone know if this bond is standard at Calm Air, First Air or Westwind ??

Friends working at calm make just over $50 000 / yr base with 2 year $10000 bond

[DeltaHotel]

According to rumors, there will be a 3 year training bond of 36 000$.

Does anyone know if this bond is standard at Calm Air, First Air or Westwind ??

Ya but we all know Pascan doesn't care about industry standards.
$36000 PLUS whatever bond they had before their transfer on ATR. You have to remember that bonds are now CUMULATIVE at Pascan. Everytime you swap machine or get an upgrade you pickup an extra bond ...

I would dare to say that everybody at Pascan is in for at least $20k right now ... and the ATRs aren't even there yet.
I can't find the words to describe how much I hate this operator. I feel very bad for the guys stuck in this trap right now. I hope they find something else while it's time.

[yourpal]

Any idea what the ATR pay scales will be?

[ivtec]

A friend of mine is an ATR FO at Calm Air. I was just asking him about pay and he makes $57/credit. guaranteed 80 credits per month and you can bid up to 85. Per diems are $81.50 per night tax free. $58,140 as an FO and an additional average of $500 per month in per diems ($64,140) as an FO is an excellent wage for flying an ATR. ATR capt's make $100,000+ and they get $25 each time they taxi the aircraft tax free. As well, they have a pension plan where the company matches up to 5% and they also have an annual employee share purchase plan where they buy EIF stock on a 3 to 1 bases (for every 3 the employee buys, EIF throws one in for free). MO has one of the best ALPA contracts for turbo-prop drivers in North America (2 raises per year, on the 1st of May you get a 4% wage increase and on your anniversary date of hire you move into the next level of pay). Immediately upon hire they get 3 weeks vacation and 8 biddable stat days, 10 guaranteed days off per month and you can put one STAT day with one GDO to extend your time off. If you want to stay in Manitoba and make good money and retire with money in the bank without commuting, it does not get any better. Some may say the grass is greener on the other side but the MO people really don't know how pod they have it. I could fly on gravel in an ATR with dual FMS for that type of money!

[getaway]

thanks for the info, lets make a comparison

calm air (since 1950)

FO 58140$,
CAPT +100000$,
81.50$ per diems,
85 hours a month,
2 raises per year,
5% pension,
3 weeks vacation,
10 days off per month,
10000$ bond over 2 years,
manitoba base


pascan (since 1999)

FO 45 to 47000$ (2 year scale),
CAPT 75 to 80000$ (3 year scale),
46.25$ per diems,
unknown amount of hours in a month,
2 to 3 years to the top of pay scale,
company pension matches up to 1000$/yr,
2 weeks vacation + 1 day for every year of seniority,
8 days off per 28 days bid,
36000$ bond over 3 years,
montreal base

[ng78]

thanks for the info, lets make a comparison

calm air (since 1950)

FO 58140$,
CAPT +100000$,
81.50$ per diems,
85 hours a month,
2 raises per year,
5% pension,
3 weeks vacation,
10 days off per month,
10000$ bond over 2 years,
manitoba base


pascan (since 1999)

FO 47000$,
CAPT 75000$,
46.25$ per diems,
unknown amount of hours in a month,
3 years to the top of pay scale,
company pension matches up to 1000$/yr,
2 weeks vacation + 1 day for every year of seniority,
8 days off per 28 days bid,
36000$ bond over 3 years,
montreal base

It would be more useful to compare starting pay and top pay with these and other companies. Calm Air pay scales are very similar starting out to what is being put above for Pascan. First Air is also very similar. What is interesting is that some Dash 8 operators pay significantly less, even though the ATR and Dash 8's are very similar airplanes. I'm curious why there would be about a $20,000 discrepancy between the two types at different airlines?