Would you like to sit in the cockpit for your next flight???

[aviator2010]

yes

[wan2fly99]

I remember the days I use to like to go on trips
I had all my flying licenses but no flying job (always hoping as we all do )

use to always go early to the airport and try to find the captain of the flight
introduced my self and chat how I missed the flying career in my early age.
Most of the time the captains would let me seat up front with him

After Sept 11, it all changed
to bad, I think the crews liked having somebody there to talk to when they were not busy
somebody who appreciated the opportunity to be there and experience that thrill

Now I try not to fly anymore at all unless really necessary

My two cents

[Topspin]

I was allowed to do this, I rode from YYZ all the way to YVR in the flight deck and I didnt even have a licence.

It was 1993 though...

I've got a friend that was allowed in for the departure, up to cruise, HKG-YVR, I believe it was 2004. Pax services mgr for a vendor, not even company employee.

Anything is possible.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Some European airlines still let you ride the jumpseat providing you can prove you're in the business (ATC, pilot, FA). It's left at the captain's discretion...just like it should be. Try it next time you fly in Europe....

In Canada the US rule, it's as simple as that.

[hotwings56]

Then how come he asked to see my License. I have travelled enough to know that Pilot's don't ask you for your license to get on board the aircraft. This is something that I have never ran into before and caused me to think exactly what he said. He did in fact say that if I had my license with me (proving that I was a pilot), I would have sat in the flightdeck home to YWG from YYZ.

I'm not sure why he asked for your licence but it would have been illegal for him to put you in the jumpseat. Only company personel are permitted

[Doc]

A buddy just got back from a trip to Moscow (always wanted to go to Moscow!). He rode the jump seat all the way from Moscow to JFK! I've seen the photos! Him sitting in the LEFT seat, sipping a coffee (wonder what Russian coffee is like?) with the "old man" sitting behind him reading a news paper, in Russian! Haven't been able to get the grin off his face for a week! Pretty sure he put it in his log book as PIC!! I know I would.

[IBPilot]

Some European airlines still let you ride the jumpseat providing you can prove you're in the business (ATC, pilot, FA). It's left at the captain's discretion...just like it should be.

In Canada the US rule, it's as simple as that.

I've got a friend that was allowed in for the departure, up to cruise, HKG-YVR, I believe it was 2004. Pax services mgr for a vendor, not even company employee.

Anything is possible.

hmmmm... makes me wonder if I did here the Pilot correct then. But anyhoot, good to hear that I am not alone on this one.

Topspin --- very interesting to hear about your one particular story. Did your friend stay in the flightdeck for the entire flight?? And my other question is how did he get in... did he ask or did he know the Captain and what airline was it. from what I'm hearing, AC does not practice this...

Try it next time you fly in Europe

I will forsure. next time i'm on a codeshare flight on LH, I'll see what happens...

[IBPilot]

A buddy just got back from a trip to Moscow (always wanted to go to Moscow!). He rode the jump seat all the way from Moscow to JFK! I've seen the photos! Him sitting in the LEFT seat, sipping a coffee (wonder what Russian coffee is like?) with the "old man" sitting behind him reading a news paper, in Russian! Haven't been able to get the grin off his face for a week!

Again, I'm assuming Aeroflot.

I guess the point here is that outside of North America, it's not practiced on a daily basis but not illegal due to the fact that the pilot has the final say and for Canadian Air Carriers (like AC) just forget about it because its illegal and just not going to happen.

Pretty sure he put it in his log book as PIC!! I know I would.

now that would be something that I would show my friends... "hey guys, look at this entry I made last night"..."ya, that's right, P-I-C from Moscow to JFK"..."Oh yaaa" LOL

[Pratt]

Also remember that airlines (AC being one of them) hold a jump seat for commuting pilots in the cabin these days. NOT in the cockpit.

You are correct in part of what you say.

On AC an AC or Jazz pilot can occupy the actual jumpseat when commuting. A pilot from another airline who is using a reciprocal jumpseat pass cannot occupy the actual jumpseat, the will only get on the flight if there is a seat available in the cabin.

There is no seat in the cabin that is reserved for jumpseat commuters. If the flight is full and you are from another airline you will not get on.

[Topspin]

I've got a friend that was allowed in for the departure, up to cruise, HKG-YVR, I believe it was 2004. Pax services mgr for a vendor, not even company employee.

Anything is possible.

Topspin --- very interesting to hear about your one particular story. Did your friend stay in the flightdeck for the entire flight?? And my other question is how did he get in... did he ask or did he know the Captain and what airline was it. from what I'm hearing, AC does not practice this...

What they did was very unusual, and very illegal by my experiences. I'm just a wannabe pilot preparing for a return to flight school, so I can't say what possible repercussions the crew would have faced if caught by authorities, but my friend probably would have lost his job and had a tough time finding anything worthwhile in the YVR community.

Not something I would ever expect to see in my life, no premonitions to be taken on that. It wasn't Air Canada, but their is no need to name any parties.

[IBPilot]

It wasn't Air Canada, but their is no need to name any parties.

Haha, don't worry... those "names" are obviously meant to stay behind closed doors.

But is it true that European Airlines allow the P-I-C to make that decision or is it a black market deal where only those who know about it are entitled to ask. If this is true, then I'm booking a tix to FRA on the next LH flight out of YYZ tomorrow morning...

I guess this would say something about the security of European flights verses North American flights.

[Buzz Lightyear]

If European airlines do allow jumpseaters they usually are very careful when the flight is bound to or coming from North America, expecially the US. The reason being they are afraid (since it happened before) that American passengers seeing that someone is allowed in the cockpit would file a complaint or even sue the airline for it's lack of security.

Unfortunately we have to live by the rules and forget about common sense. Not allowing a professional pilot from another airline on the jumpseat or your wife or your kid in the name of security is just plain stupid to me....

The sky used to be way more friendly!

Safe flights

B.

[twinpratts]

I'm pretty sure he was pulling your leg... We're not allowed to have anyone in the JS transborder.

[yycflyguy]

I'm pretty sure he was pulling your leg... We're not allowed to have anyone in the JS transborder.

Active AC pilots with a valid RAIC and their name on the flight plan (arranged 24 hrs in advance, through crew sked as ADC) are allowed transborder. AC Pilots and F/A's are allowed domestically. It's a US FAR thing, so technically even the domestic flights that transit US airspace are to follow their rules.... that, and a big wang.

[mag check]

Actually, there is an exemption available for air operators if they wish to permit commuting pilots to have access to the flight deck on domestic flights. However, the air operator has to be willing and it doesn't apply to a PPL.

The purpose of this exemption is to permit Canadian air operators who wish to offer their flight deck jump seat to commuting pilots and their pilots-in-command to grant admission to the flight deck of their aeroplane on domestic flights to pilots employed by other Canadian air operators commuting to or from their flight assignments, subject to the conditions below.
...
This exemption is subject to the following conditions:
...
4. The pilot-in-command shall verify the identity of the commuting pilot by examining and comparing his or her Restricted Area Identity Card (RAIC) with:
a valid passport;
a valid Airline Transport Pilot Licence and a valid Medical Certificate; or
a valid Commercial Pilot Licence and a valid Medical Certificate.

EXEMPTION FROM SUBSECTION 705.27(3) OF THE CANADIAN AVIATION REGULATIONS

So, to clarify this exemption to the regs, if I work for an air operator, have an airside pass, and a commercial pilots license, then they CAN let me on the flight deck?

[yycflyguy]

Actually, there is an exemption available for air operators if they wish to permit commuting pilots to have access to the flight deck on domestic flights. However, the air operator has to be willing and it doesn't apply to a PPL.

The purpose of this exemption is to permit Canadian air operators who wish to offer their flight deck jump seat to commuting pilots and their pilots-in-command to grant admission to the flight deck of their aeroplane on domestic flights to pilots employed by other Canadian air operators commuting to or from their flight assignments, subject to the conditions below.
...
This exemption is subject to the following conditions:
...
4. The pilot-in-command shall verify the identity of the commuting pilot by examining and comparing his or her Restricted Area Identity Card (RAIC) with:
a valid passport;
a valid Airline Transport Pilot Licence and a valid Medical Certificate; or
a valid Commercial Pilot Licence and a valid Medical Certificate.

EXEMPTION FROM SUBSECTION 705.27(3) OF THE CANADIAN AVIATION REGULATIONS

So, to clarify this exemption to the regs, if I work for an air operator, have an airside pass, and a commercial pilots license, then they CAN let me on the flight deck?

Not on an Air Canada plane. See any of my 3 previous posts.

[loopa]

Hello Everyone.

This story might make a few of you jump.

Coming home last Christmas (2009) from my family vacation to Florida, I was offered the thrid seat IN THE FLIGHTDECK on an Air Canada A320 from YYZ to YWG. Because my dad works for the airline, our status is standby. I'm sure some of you know when the meaning of standby is for travellers around Christmas. My family had flwon ahead on the flight previous so I had to get on the last AC flight to YWG (home) otherwise I'm sleeping in the airport. as I'm waiting to board, the agent announces that the plane was full. As I was about to get up and go sit in a comfortable place for the night (already like 10:15pm), the Captain comes out. I've never seen this before so I stayed around just to see why he came out. It turns out that he was looking at the standby list and saw that I had the highest priority (my dads priority) out of everyone there. he called me up and once he saw that I was in fact not the employee, he began searching for the next standby. Curious, i asked him what he was doing. His answer, "i'm looking for standby's who want to fly the flightdeck home." I instantly junped at him and said that "wait, i'm a private Pilot." he looked at me and said, "really" and I said, "yes!" he then asked me if I had my license with me and I unfortunately had to say no. That was the end of my chances. he did say that if I had my license with me, the third seat would have been mine.... the flight left with noone in the flightdeck because i was the only pilot in the group.

In all, I learnt a lesson. Always bring your TC License with you when you fly... you never know. I was so pissed off but that was a missed opportunity that I would have like so much...

Have any of you ever run into a situation like this???

Cheers

I don't think having your licenses make a difference. If you don't have your RAIC, I don't believe there's anyway for you to get the third seat in a flight deck. It's different in Europe though. If you know the pilot's, they can allow you in the jump seat as part of the captains discretion.

[c170b53]

Mechanics are also excluded from the cockpit at Big Red for reasons unknown to me (I work there). Last year I fixed a plane out of town and the crew insisted on my presence in the cockpit on the return flight. I believe it was enjoyed by both parties, it was a good refresher and a reminder of how it used to be. Last week I rode shotgun to YVR-VRO and back and on each leg the crew asked whether I was riding up front. I declined, as they didn't really seem that keen to have me there and besides there were seats available front cabin. Did enjoy the return flight when the cabin crew asked me to fix the IFE in the back cabin. We normally don't attempt repairs in cruise but it wasn't a big technical issue. I had to lie on the floor in the isle (made sure no passengers were wearing skirts before I started looking for the problem) and repair cables damaged by the Cuban groomers. Had a chuckle hearing the flight attendant explain to a passenger that I was the airlines electrician. When fixed, the passengers who could now see the movie were appreciative of my presence as was the cabin crew which was good enough for me. On that note I think our cabin crews try to do the best they can for our passengers, its often the situation ( operational or technical) that leads to frustrations developing amongst staff and amongst our customers. Often our cabin crews have to take the brunt of the action.

[CD]

So, to clarify this exemption to the regs, if I work for an air operator, have an airside pass, and a commercial pilots license, then they CAN let me on the flight deck?

Yes, but only if the company has chosen to make use of the exemption and comply with the conditions of the exemption. As yycflyguy has indicated, his company has chosen not to use the exemption so there is still no access to their flight deck as the regulatory limitations apply.

[yycflyguy]

So, to clarify this exemption to the regs, if I work for an air operator, have an airside pass, and a commercial pilots license, then they CAN let me on the flight deck?

Yes, but only if the company has chosen to make use of the exemption and comply with the conditions of the exemption. As yycflyguy has indicated, his company has chosen not to use the exemption so there is still no access to their flight deck as the regulatory limitations apply.

Are you sure it is the company that elects for an exemption or is it something imposed by Transport. I know there was a motion put forward by ACPA to allow "persons known to the Captain" access to the flight deck and that was shot down by Transport saying that family/friends would be a distraction during an emergency Whatever. I would personally prefer to have the Captain's wife sitting with us for 5 hours than some stinky company pilot.

[CD]

Yes, the exemption is available for any Canadian company, for the purpose stated in the exemption:

The purpose of this exemption is to permit Canadian air operators who wish to offer their flight deck jump seat to commuting pilots and their pilots-in-command to grant admission to the flight deck of their aeroplane on domestic flights to pilots employed by other Canadian air operators commuting to or from their flight assignments, subject to the conditions below.

If a company chooses to make the seat available to a commuting pilot, they must then comply with the conditions of the exemption as well. However, as you indicate, your company has chosen not to make use of the exemption from the regulatory limitations of 705.27. It appears from the exemptions database that it was first made available in 2008. However, there is no indication whether any company has actually chosen to make use of the exemption.

[Brint]

I'm sure there are more than a few old timers there that don't care about company policy and would offer the flight deck.

A friend of mine got the jumpseat from Halifax to London a few years back and he wasn't with Air Canada (we was with a Tier 3 Operator, had AC Passes, was in uniform and it was post 9-11)

I can't imagine that was the first or last time that has happened.

[Nark]

So it boils down to:

These are the rules.


This is what actually happens.



Most of you out there have been around long enough to know there is a difference between what is written down, and reality.



Doc,

Back when I was still wet behind the ears. (well still am, but it's all relative right?) I was flying Canadian business class from YYZ to YVR. It was the Asiana 767 which had the even better seat's (1999). I just got my PPL and was more infatuated by airplanes than the luxury of actual silverware and FA's who addressed me as Mr. Nark. I asked to ride jump seat all the way back to YVR.

Totally worth it. I want to say Rockie was the FO, but he'll never admit to it...

[IBPilot]

I'm sure there are more than a few old timers there that don't care about company policy and would offer the flight deck.

A friend of mine got the jumpseat from Halifax to London a few years back and he wasn't with Air Canada (we was with a Tier 3 Operator, had AC Passes, was in uniform and it was post 9-11)

I can't imagine that was the first or last time that has happened.

So, like Nark said, it really boils down to the Pilot's desicion. Maybe next time, I will try for the jumpseat. From reading all these posts, maybe it is possible.

Thanks guys and gals for ALL the fantastic posts and information...

Cheers

[RVgrin]

Mechanics are also excluded from the cockpit .... Last year I fixed ... the IFE in the back cabin ... in cruise

Sounds like you guys should also be excluded from the cabin.

IMHO... there is no way a non-emergency repair to a non-essential electrical system should be carried out 7 miles above the surface.

c170b53, please don't take this personally. I am sure you are a very good mechanic, and were confident that there was no danger to the flight. And there probably wasn't.

But where do we draw the line? Apprentices, or only experienced AMEs? Over water or only over land? Certain systems only? .... PIC approval required or chief flight attendant? Sober, or one drink maximum?

I think this sets a bad precedent, and if I ran an airline I wouldn't allow it.

Recall it was "just" the IFE's wiring that killed all 229 people on board Swissair Flight 111.