CBC Does Pilot Fatigue: March 24- 26

[North Shore]

Janszoon, I think that you are missing the point. Sure Gagne knowingly busted the rules (and, FWIW, changing the rules isn't going to fix anything - if people broke them before, then they will do so in the future) And while nobody put a gun to his head, the threat of eviction/loss of credit rating/harassing creditors etc, because of low pay is a pretty strong motivator to work two jobs, and thereby break the rules..

[Gino Under]

Flying tired is nothing new to flying.
Whining over strong, weak or just plain stupid regulation is and has always been a total waste of time. They haven't gotten it right yet and you'll likely be old and retired by the time regulation even approaches sensibility.

Self regulate, I say. Simply because it works.

Step 1 - Are you tired? Yes.
Should you go flying tired? No.
Step 2 - Call in tired. Hang up the phone. Go and get some rest.
Step 3 - The boss calls and says you're fired. (his loss, not yours)
Step 4 - Thank him/her for the wonderful opportunity to build some flying time and experience then wish him/her good luck in court.
Step 5 - Contact a reasonable Labour Lawyer and sue the bastard for Wrongful Dismissal.
Step 6 - Open a cold one and checkout the CBC drivel on Pilot Fatigue.

Not accepting a flight when I am medically unfit is MY responsibility. Being tired or over tired is medically unfit. That sounds pretty simple to me. It's not about what's legal under TC regulation. It's about ME accepting responsibility when I know I shouldn't fly.

Neither side should try to hide behind regulation. It rarely works.

(like North Shore says in his signature: Ass, Licence, Job. In that order)

[Janszoon]

Janszoon, I think that you are missing the point. Sure Gagne knowingly busted the rules (and, FWIW, changing the rules isn't going to fix anything - if people broke them before, then they will do so in the future) And while nobody put a gun to his head, the threat of eviction/loss of credit rating/harassing creditors etc, because of low pay is a pretty strong motivator to work two jobs, and thereby break the rules..

Very valid point. In many cases, this industry does not provide a workplace where an employee feels secure, or has adequate finances and the means to provide for a family, and that's a problem that needs to be addressed most definitely.

[Widow]

How many pilots do you know who have had a successful outcome for a wrongful dismissal suit? Without committing career suicide or ending up financially/emotionally bankrupt?

[Gino Under]

I think that's the point.
Not many have had the b-alls to try a wrongful dismissal lawsuit out of fear of losing their job. So what does that tell us? Not much.
Why should you fear losing a $24,000 a year job? There is only one way to find out and one way to see who's to blame. Isn't it easier to complain over the backyard fence than confront the issue in a legitimate forum??? If exercising what is required of you under regulation is career suicide, then costing you a $20-45K job, isn't much of a loss.

So, you're right in a way. Not many have.
Last year, one did. Albeit for another reason but it was still a wrongful dismissal. He won 3 million and now doesn't have to worry about flying for peanuts or figuring out how to climb that career ladder.

I know what I've done in the past. So shame on me.
I also know how to deal with it in the future (and on alot more than $45K)

[.......]

Epic post Eric.

In the future you may want to check for spelling and grammar before you put your name on it or expect a reply.

I don't see you even trying to post in the french forum... give the guy a break!

[Mr. North]

Janszoon, my thoughts exactly!!

With all due respect, propping up Mr. Gangé and using his example will lead people to believe that this is merely an enforcement issue.

We all know that it isn't!




Oh and SkyLounger, how was I supposed to know he's French and not just another drunk AvCanada blow hard? Give ME a break!

[BTD]

Flying tired is nothing new to flying.
Whining over strong, weak or just plain stupid regulation is and has always been a total waste of time. They haven't gotten it right yet and you'll likely be old and retired by the time regulation even approaches sensibility.

Self regulate, I say. Simply because it works.

Step 1 - Are you tired? Yes.
Should you go flying tired? No.
Step 2 - Call in tired. Hang up the phone. Go and get some rest.
Step 3 - The boss calls and says you're fired. (his loss, not yours)
Step 4 - Thank him/her for the wonderful opportunity to build some flying time and experience then wish him/her good luck in court.
Step 5 - Contact a reasonable Labour Lawyer and sue the bastard for Wrongful Dismissal.
Step 6 - Open a cold one and checkout the CBC drivel on Pilot Fatigue.

Not accepting a flight when I am medically unfit is MY responsibility. Being tired or over tired is medically unfit. That sounds pretty simple to me. It's not about what's legal under TC regulation. It's about ME accepting responsibility when I know I shouldn't fly.

Neither side should try to hide behind regulation. It rarely works.

(like North Shore says in his signature: Ass, Licence, Job. In that order)

While I agree that you should not fly if you consider yourself unfit (tired), I don't think that means regulation has no place. As it stands right now, companies can stay within the law and schedule you to be perpetually tired. Min rest to Min Rest to Min Rest, flying on the backside of the clock.

Why even allow it, if there is a way to improve.

Its similar to a bad curve on a road with no barrier. You could always take another route, to prevent going over the edge. But why not put up a barrier to allow yourself to take this route and prevent others that are going to take it anyway from going over. (I suppose this is a little bit of a lowest common denominator arguement )

There is also the protection that some regulation affords the public.

IE: Company can schedule pilot to minimum rest repeatedly, and work many legs for X days in a row. This pilot doesn't have the balls to stand up and say I'm tired. Passengers board airplane, pilot crashes due to fatigue, everyone dies. Now your innocent passengers are dead through no fault of their own, and the company moves on with its scheduling practices.

Prevent the company from being able to do this in the first place, you minimize the risk, and this accident likely doesn't happen.

This is something the industry is crying for (pilot group). I doubt most would consider a new regulation in this area to be over regulation, unlike other issues.

If the system is less than ideal, then fix the system. Don't just ignore it and operate around it.

BTD

*spelling

[Zatopec]

How many pilots do you know who have had a successful outcome for a wrongful dismissal suit? Without committing career suicide or ending up financially/emotionally bankrupt?

I think that's the point.
Not many have had the b-alls to try a wrongful dismissal lawsuit out of fear of losing their job. So what does that tell us? Not much.
Why should you fear losing a $24,000 a year job? There is only one way to find out and one way to see who's to blame. Isn't it easier to complain over the backyard fence than confront the issue in a legitimate forum??? If exercising what is required of you under regulation is career suicide, then costing you a $20-45K job, isn't much of a loss.

So, you're right in a way. Not many have.

I have. But I know of no other.

Self regulate, I say. Simply because it works.

Step 1 - Are you tired? Yes.
Should you go flying tired? No.
Step 2 - Call in tired. Hang up the phone. Go and get some rest.
Step 3 - The boss calls and says you're fired. (his loss, not yours)
Step 4 - Thank him/her for the wonderful opportunity to build some flying time and experience then wish him/her good luck in court.
Step 5 - Contact a reasonable Labour Lawyer and sue the bastard for Wrongful Dismissal.
Step 6 - Open a cold one and checkout the CBC drivel on Pilot Fatigue.

Precisely in that order, you could not have said it better. Step 6 came in seven years later.

To this day I would still make that decision. Did it prove to be career suicide? No. I eventually ended up finding a job with an excellent airline. Has it been financially/emotionaly hard? Very! Long story short, in 2004 I decided I had had enough of dealing with all the crap that comes with moving up the ladder to get that elusive dream airline job. I had nothing but debts and wasn't ready to put that strain on my family anymore and decided it was time to move on. I now work on the other side of the frequency and it's all so much better!

So yes, that event pushed me out. But I was not forced out. I myself decided to get out, for good.

By the way, I won my case at the labour board.

As for the two guys who fired me, I saw just a couple weeks ago that after ending up in senior management positions, they managed the compnany so badly that it went bankrupt. Too bad.

[xsbank]

Some excellent comments here - so what exactly is the problem? "Pilot fatigue" is just the obvious manifestation of a simpler issue, the fact that most 'low time' pilots work for virtually nothing. If you are underpaid, have massive debts from school, feel pressed to take an extra job so you can eat or help support your debt, the pressures are enormous to ignore the rules in a system that pays you by the hour or by the mile. If we tossed out the federal component and regulated the whole aviation industry based on provincial guidelines, the financial impact on these cheesy operators would lead the change. If a pilot were expected to work an 8 hour shift, then go home or to a hotel, there would be employment for more pilots, they would be paid 'more' fairly and fatigue would amount to that experienced by a 'normal' worker. The least you could earn would be minimum wage. Long flights? Better use another crew like many companies already do over longer legs, or you pay your crews overtime. Don't want days off because you are living in Bugcity, NWO? Then you get overtime for day 6 and day 7 but you get (I have to say this) a 'double double' for every hour over 8. You would need 2 days rest to reset the clock until you get back to 'normal' pay.

I don't think regulations will do anything to make change, especially as there aren't enough inspectors and TC still seems unwilling to regulate. The owner's pocketbook will be the only instrument of change.

"A union in every pot."

[short bus]

Not many have had the b-alls to try a wrongful dismissal lawsuit out of fear of losing their job. So what does that tell us? Not much.

This doesn't make much sense to me... to file for wrongful dismissal you would've had to have lost your job...

[sprucemonkey]

I forgot to mention the pilots here who will do anything if the big guy wants them too. When asked to, return the plane back to base knowing full well they are busting times. What is worse is they do this after being awake for 20hrs plus. Example. Fresh at 0700, woke up at 0900. Up all day. Going to bed at 2200 then get the call. Do 12hrs. Then told to return the plane. 3hrs flying time to go. I witnessed this again just last week.

Then smack your roommate in the head and tell him/her to stop that and go have a pint at T&A's.

[into the blue]

Just watched the second part of the series tonight. Being new to commercial flying, I am obviously not the best person to judge this CBC's product, but I think it was much closer to the heart of the problems, than the first part.

Also, props to Air New Zealand for their meticulous safety practices. Cancelling or delaying a flight because pilots are fatigued? Geez, so what? They are still in business, doing OK and their bottom line probably doesn't suffer much from that. In fact, I suppose any good management can use their superb safety culture to actually INCREASE the profits...by getting the word out to the media and letting the journalists do the rest of the work (like comparing them to other operators). There is a ton of people who are scared or hesitant to fly, but still have to; they are more likely to "stick" to airlines with a good safety reputation. Opinions?

[Gino Under]

BTD
I agree with your remarks. Regulation does have its place and we as a pilot group need to have our regulator improve what they said they would improve decades ago. My sentiment is simply that we get on with dealing with the frontline issues while the regulators sort out the best way forward with OUR input. In a serious manner this time. We can all appreciate that it's going to take time. They only work an 8 hour day not to mention Stat Holiday off, and getting change into law, well, what can I say about prorogue?
Then there's this SMS bandwagon. The lazy man's way of implementing ineffective safety measures at Family Airways.... on and on.

ZAP
Good for you and congrats.

I stood up to my employer over a decade ago. The result? I'll probably never get a job offer from a Canadian Carrier again. Not necessarily by choice but by implication from that previous employer. So far, they've been right. Does that bother me? Not in the least. Pick any carrier out there. If I want to start as a Jr. F/O (and I don't) they'll give me anywhere from 35 to about 55 for the priviledge. With my time, types and experience (FACT not ego), I have no intention of working for that kind of money. You started as a Jr. F/O on a DC8 or A300 at around 35 to 40 back in the 80s when you had no experience or type ratings. I don't know about you but for me the cost of living has gone up. Waaaay up.
The airlines in Canada are stuck in the 80s and it all started with Harry Steele when he said during the EPA strike that “yer all a bunch of overpaid cab drivers”.
Most airline execs think the shiny assets are what’s most valuable to them. They’re wrong. The most valuable assets are the guys and gals who make it move from A to B without smashing it into a zillion bits and costing them much more than the shiny asset cost when they bought it. How do you put a price on safety or an accident until it happens? Airline execs don't think that way. So whether or not your tired is so far down their list of concerns it'll be awhile before we get a shoulder to lean on.
It never changes.

XS
Well said.
…and cheers. (stay thirsty my friend)

Short Bus
Yes. I mean IF you lost your job because you refused to fly while fatigued.
When I was involved (I mean rolled up my sleeves involved) in safety back in the 80s (yeah, the 80s. I was a naiive kid then) the issue of hours and mileage as pay or pay supplement, was a hot button with pilots. Especially the ones ‘up north’. We battled over that and it was agreed that this practice was to stop as it had contributed to a number of accidents and only served to encourage the younger newlywed with a small family to push it to the limit to earn as much $$$ as possible. Talk about the wrong motivation?

As naiive as I can be, this practice cannot still be going on after more than 20 years of having agreed it should be stopped. If it is, as I suspect it is, then I can assure you the pilot fatigue thing is destined for the same shelf. (so much for SMS)

Gino Under

[Widow]

Hansard: March 25

Transportation

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, according to the Canadian Transportation Safety Board, 12 airplane accidents that led to 28 deaths were caused by extreme fatigue experienced by the pilots, who have to fly ridiculous schedules. Airlines even advise pilots to fudge their logbooks. According to a number of studies, tired pilots act as though they are drunk.

How can the government ignore passenger safety when it has known for years that some companies are breaking the rules?

Hon. John Baird (Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, the safety and security of Canadians is a top priority for Transport Canada. We have a significant amount of regulations that are enforced, with respect to flight crew fatigue management. It is something that is incredibly important.

All of our rules follow the standards put forward by the International Civil Aviation Organization. All of them.

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, the government always says that it is concerned. Yet, Transport Canada did not hesitate to change an important study on aviation safety by removing two recommendations concerning the effect of the biological clock on a pilot.

How can we believe that Transport Canada is worried about aviation safety when it has hidden information and refused to act since 2001?

Hon. John Baird (Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, we constantly seek to raise the bar with respect to the standards not just for aviation security but also aviation safety. That includes mechanical aspects of civil aviation, but also those men and women who work in the system. We are currently following all ICAO standards. There are a good number of recommended practices that have been suggested in recent years. The department has established a task force to address these and what we can do to raise the bar and do a better job for Canadians, and we certainly welcome the advice and counsel of the member opposite.

Hansard: March 26

Transportation

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, the television show Enquête reported that, while pilots and companies lied about actual flying hours, the Canadian government did nothing to prevent extreme fatigue in pilots. The government is turning a blind eye to this problem which affects the safety of passengers.

How can we believe that the government cares about air safety when it is giving itself another two years to deal with the issue?

Hon. John Baird (Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, we follow all of the requirements of the International Civil Aviation Organization. It also makes supplementary recommendations. We are working hard with representatives of industry, representatives of the pilots themselves, and officials at Transport Canada, to look at what we can do to further expand the anti-fatigue measurement.

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ):
That is two years of insecurity nonetheless, Mr. Speaker.

The airports capital assistance program, or ACAP, will end on March 31, and there is no indication that it could be renewed. The executive director of the regional airport in Mont-Joli, Carole Duval, is particularly concerned because she would like to extend the landing strip and quickly modernize electrical installations at the Mont-Joli airport in order to reduce maintenance costs.

Will the government stop making a mystery of it, renew ACAP and enhance it to meet the needs of regional airports?

Hon. John Baird (Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, I must tell my friend from the Bloc Québécois that the government will continue in Quebec and across Canada with this program to support municipal airports.

I appreciate the good work the Bloc critic is doing.

[MrWings]

I intented to watch this but I was too tired.

[The Hammer]

My employer offered to reduce duty days to limit fatigue. This required the crews to work more but shorter days. What do you think the crews answer was????? You already know the answer.

Ps the cost to employer was approx 20% more ie travel/perdiems/staff/training.

A full time job is a full time job whether its spread over 14 or 21 days.

Stop looking for TC to provide the backbone you can't find in yourself.

[Mig29]

Great posts from everyone!!

I just wish we were much closer to the Regulation changes than "a couple of years"
In a couple of years, another guy is going to be running TC and he/she will say that there are "other priorities on the table at the moment"....and shove those "Amendments" under his office carpet for another "idealist" to deal with it...

I hope I'm wrong.

[Gino Under]

Baird isn't the man for the job.

[willing to fly]

Just watched the show. Anyone else think the trailers at the airport was a brilliant idea? Do any of the commuters at Canadian airlines do this?