In Flight Engine Shutdown

[canadapilot924]

Spoke to a TC inspector a few days back and it's all true. New flight test guides are already available. Slow flight is no longer at 5kts above stall speed, it's pretty much right on the stall. Also interesting to note,a spin is no longer required on the commercial...just an incipient recovery. Not a bad idea considering the spin training for most newly-minted Class 4s.
Sorry to hijack!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Spoke to a TC inspector a few days back and it's all true. New flight test guides are already available. Slow flight is no longer at 5kts above stall speed, it's pretty much right on the stall. Also interesting to note,a spin is no longer required on the commercial...just an incipient recovery. Not a bad idea considering the spin training for most newly-minted Class 4s.
Sorry to hijack!

I just spoke to a West Coast PPL/CPL DFTE and he said he has recieved no indication from TC that anything has changed. I also just looked on the TC site and nothing has changed.

I realize that the West Coast is 3 years..I mean 3 hours away from Ottawa time so I am not surprised any news has not made it here yet.

Do you have a link to new flight test guides ?

[PatLaP]

I realize that the West Coast is 3 years..I mean 3 hours away from Ottawa time so I am not surprised any news has not made it here yet.

I'm in the ¨Ottawa time¨ (read eastern time) and it seems that the news aren't here too! so maybe the news travel northbound ?

[canadapilot924]

Call the Calgary office, they have the new flight test guides. They even highlight in the new guide what has changed which is useful. I got given them but i'm sure they can email them accross if they're not on the website yet.

[PatLaP]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... /intro.htm

so it's true!

but I can't find the TP 11575E on the TC website

[Doc]

I do believe this could be the first time, in the history of the World, that Transport Canada actually pulled their heads out of their asses.....in writing!

It was a DANGEROUS practice brought about by complete idiots, followed by sheep/instructors devoid of an ounce of common sense!

[Bushav8er]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... /intro.htm

so it's true!

but I can't find the TP 11575E on the TC website

Try here -
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... s/menu.htm at the bottom under 'Flight Instructor Guides'. You may also want to check the top - 'Flight Test Guides'

[Captain Slog]

I have a question.

Is there a procedure in the POH or any other manufacturer provided document for, not only a restart in flight, but a shutdown in flight for the aircraft in question? If not aren’t you now operating the aircraft outside of it’s tested and certified envelope? If so doesn’t this make you an un-trained test pilot?

As I say just a question, I am no expert still in training myself, not as a test pilot though.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have a question.

Is there a procedure in the POH or any other manufacturer provided document for, not only a restart in flight, but a shutdown in flight for the aircraft in question? If not aren’t you now operating the aircraft outside of it’s tested and certified envelope? If so doesn’t this make you an un-trained test pilot?

As I say just a question, I am no expert still in training myself, not as a test pilot though.

The bigger issue IMO is the fact that light twin certification requirements do not require that an engine can be restarted in flight under all conditions, the only requirement is that an inflight restart procedure be provided in the POH. So if you can get the engine going again, good for you, if it won't start the aircraft maker is going to say basically "it sure sucks to be you, because I guess you just found one of the possible sets of conditions where a restart was not possible". Bottom line deliberately shut one down and when you go to do the restart you are a test pilot (minus all the proper test pilot safety procedures, of course).

[PatLaP]

thank you Bushav8er for the link

but i didn't express myself correctly.. I mean I can't find the NEW tp11575E

the one on the TC website still talk about doing an inflight engine shutdown in the section advice to instructor of ex.12

But If it's just an advice that mean it's not mandatory so the instructor should not do it because it's not safe and a part of the instructor job is to teach how to keep the flight as safe as possible! right?

[Bushav8er]

No problem. TC is a little slow, probably updating the 'Instructors' Guide but the 'Test' Guide is already updated - 'which came first the chicken or the egg'?

Pretty much means, teach as you see fit for the moment BUT this is what we are testing on. (Which means that you don't have to teach it)


(just for ref. again)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... 9/menu.htm thats the Flight Test Guide not the Instructor Guide BUT it is April 2010. See section 12.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Pretty sad when TC goes ahead and makes major changes without any notice. Thank god for Avcanada

[Doc]

Pretty sad when TC goes ahead and makes major changes without any notice. Thank god for Avcanada

Most of the TC inspectors probably saw it here first. We're leading edge, I tells ya!

[rigpiggy]

The Hornet was a non issue. I can't remember the numbers, but I could maintain a decent climb gradient at 20 000' with Afterburner on the good engine. Restarts on a jet are straight forward. Eighter a windmilling start or an assisted start if RPM is too low.
.

I talked with the guy who put one in off CYEV, his response was engine loss on t/o at MGTOW was salute and punch out, which is what he did.

[AuxBatOn]

[I talked with the guy who put one in off CYEV, his response was engine loss on t/o at MGTOW was salute and punch out, which is what he did.

Maybe if you knew a little more about the airplane itself... You'd be in a better position to comment.

The emergency response for an engine failure on take off would be:

If decision to stop is made:
Abort
Otherwise:
Throttles.............MAX
AOA...................MAINTAIN ON SPEED, BALANCED FLIGHT
External Stores....JETTISON (IF REQUIRED)

If you are past abort speed, you will do the actions after the "Otherwise"

If you are above min go, that means you will take off. It doesn't mean you will fly well. You are slow, behind the power curve and low. You need to maintain at least on speed AOA, which is 8.1 degrees. My personnal benchmarks if that ever happens to me are that if I can't maintain (clear the obstacle vmc, minimum climb gradient IMC) 250 Kts, I will emergency jettisson the stores immediately and 200 kts or on speed, I'm out. Otherwise, I will jettison the stores if I need to over a safe place.

[Hedley]

Note that in the more general case, most people think that an engine failure in a single-engine jet means it's time to step overboard, but that's not always the case.

Bob Hoover quite regularly used to dead-stick fighter jets as a test pilot for North American to quite a short runway. Read his auto-biography, "Forever Flying". He was quite a pilot, despite the FAA's opinion to the contrary.

My father, despite the fact that Transport doesn't think he's much of a pilot either, dead-sticked a short-igniter F-86 through a thick cloud deck in Europe via an instrument approach to an uneventful landing on a runway. This was duplicated by an F-16 recently, albeit without much cloud:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKInIaI0hnQ

I am only aware of one dead-stick jet landing on an aircraft carrier, decades ago. Simply incredible skill required for that. I am sure lots of golden-arms here think they could easily do it.

Another incident: over North Vietnam, after getting shot up and flaming out his single-engine jet fighter, a fellow once got a "buddy" push to over the Gulf of Tonkin, where he had better odds ejecting. His buddy, a master of formation flying, pushed his nose up against the tail of the engine-out fighter, and drove them both out of North Vietnam. Neat trick.

[AuxBatOn]

I would never attempt to deadstick a Hornet. The Mechanical Back Up Mode (MECH OFF OFF) is, apparently, very very hard to fly.

[Hedley]

Yes, but you have two engines in an F-18 which is not the case with the F-86 or F-16 or F-104 etc.

Reminds me of the (completely untrue) story of a single-engine jet fighter pilot who requested priority from tower because of his low fuel. Tower replied that he was #2 behind a B-52 that had declared an emergency as a result of an engine failure.

"Ah", replied the fighter pilot, "the dreaded seven engine approach!"

[iflyforpie]

Can't you run most systems on the Hornet through the APU driving the AMAD? (provided your problem isn't running out of fuel)

[trampbike]

Another incident: over North Vietnam, after getting shot up and flaming out his single-engine jet fighter, a fellow once got a "buddy" push to over the Gulf of Tonkin, where he had better odds ejecting. His buddy, a master of formation flying, pushed his nose up against the tail of the engine-out fighter, and drove them both out of North Vietnam. Neat trick.

Awesome story indeed. I think thought that the guy drown after the ejection over the sea. Too bad after all the effort.

[ETOPS]

1) All this bickering and name calling isn't going to change the fact that I enjoyed the experience.

2) The flight test was booked for this month, making the exercise a requirement.

3) - and I'm gonna leave it at this:

An engine failure on the Aztec during cruising flight presents very minor operational problems.

Single engine flight can be maintained with the dead engine propeller unfeathered...

Pilots of this airplane should remain reasonably proficient in single engine flight. In many cases, "simulated" single engine operation (zero thrust condition, approximatly 10" of manifold pressure and 2200RPM) will be preferable, but actual single engine operation should be practiced occasionally.

[Lurch]

1) All this bickering and name calling isn't going to change the fact that I enjoyed the experience.

I'm not going to go back and re-read but I don't remember any name calling

ETOPS I still want an answer to my questions, I'll re-post them to save you from having to go back.

(1) How long into the flight did you fail the engine?

2) What was the power setting when the engine was failed and how long was it set for?

3) What was your TITs before failure and on restart?

4) How long was the engine failed for?

5) Once re-started how long did you run the engine at a low power setting before bringing the power up?

6) What was the plan in case the engine failed to restart or come out of feather?

Lurch

Do this and I'll explain the problem with your last quote.

Pilots of this airplane should remain reasonably proficient in single engine flight. In many cases, "simulated" single engine operation (zero thrust condition, approximatly 10" of manifold pressure and 2200RPM) will be preferable, but actual single engine operation should be practiced occasionally.

Lurch

[Bushav8er]

Not to take sides in this 'discussion' but he is talking about the Aztec, actually quoting the POH, and that quote is in it and goes on to list a set of conditions to be met, but my copy also says -
Aztec E 'Operating Tips' page 2 number 20.

Experience has shown that the training advantage gained by pulling the mixture control or turning off the fuel to simulate an engine failure at low altitude is not worth the risk assumed. Therefore, it is recommended that instead of using either of these procedures to simulate loss of power at low altitude the throttle be retarded slowly to idle position. Fast reduction of power may be harmful to the engine.

That said, I seem to recall a (survey) company (US?) that routinely shut down one engine (on the Aztec) on patrols to extend range and save fuel. Don't ask for details, if I could remember I'd reference them.