Confederation College Pre-Technology Program

[djsamphard]

Hello everyone. I wanted to know if anyone has taken this course or is planning on attending confederation college this September . I did not have the math requirements to get into the flight management course so I am planning on doing the pre-technology program and then applying again next year for flight management. My original plan was to do my training at Brampton Flying Club but I could not come up with the money. So this is the next best thing I am planning on doing. So if anyone has taken this program or is attending confederation college in September for this program or the flight management program please pm me.

[SuperchargedRS]

Did you sign the contract stating you will not commit kamikaze flights into the states (confed has been having troubles with that latley), or mash planes into the runway lol

Why not try to get a visa to go to the US and get your CPL (conversion is easy), Montana State has a program that I hear good things about. Ether way I would avoid CONfed.

[djsamphard]

I was thinking about going to the states but I cannot get a loan from my bank. So Confed is really my only choice.

[SuperchargedRS]

One piece of advice, make friends with a second year kid. Buy them some beer and study with them from the moment you enter the college to the day to take the FINAL 2 tests on the last week of class before X-mas.

The first year they will give you a final test, this test dictates EVERYTHING and they don't really prep you very well! Mess that test up and your DONE (and will loose a chunk of change, near 10k with only 15 or so hours to show for it)

Study with the kids who have already taken that test

and don't get comfortable thinking the instructors are preparing you for it lol



You also might be able to save some money getting that math class knocked out in a different community college (or accredited online course?) near your home where can just take the math class instead of a whole program. Save $ and time

[Toaster]

Hi djsamphard,

It seems like a waste of money to do one year of a program just to switch to another one. I was in your position a year ago; My high school didn't offer the MC4CT math course so I took it with http://www.ilc.org its a super easy course and you can have it done in 2 months if you don't procrastinate.

I'd take a year off work and save every penny and go back next year.

Good Luck!

Toaster

[C-GOYR]

superchargedRS, why would you avoid the fed? Does it have anything to do with the quality of education/training or, something else such as their track record?

[Slappy the Squirrel]

He already stated two reasons. Because lots of confed students hijack planes, and they teach you to crash your plane into the runway there. Two very informative answers.

[Slats]

Beware the sour grapes.

[fingersmac]

Hi djsamphard,

It seems like a waste of money to do one year of a program just to switch to another one. I was in your position a year ago; My high school didn't offer the MC4CT math course so I took it with http://www.ilc.org its a super easy course and you can have it done in 2 months if you don't procrastinate.

I'd take a year off work and save every penny and go back next year.

Good Luck!

Toaster

Fantastic advice. I was put on the waiting list because I didn't have that particular math course (didn't exist when I went to high school in the mid-90s). I did the course via ILC in about 2 months and was accepted into the program in the mid summer. I'd give the college a call and see if you could get in by completing the math course over the spring/summer. The other alternative is to do the course via ILC and spend the next year working/saving for school.

[SuperchargedRS]

superchargedRS, why would you avoid the fed? Does it have anything to do with the quality of education/training or, something else such as their track record?

I dont like some of their practices. The final test that dictates the majority of the grade and the fact that you never see your test after it is graded (I can not think of a SINGLE real college that does that, for obvious reasons!)

They highly regulate where the students can fly (which is not cohesive to the production of good pilots) plus have a half a million other rules, yet they still have a safety record worse then some very liberally run flight schools that I have been to.

Add to that the 50% + failure rate (which is INSANE) in conjunction with a policy not to refund the mandatory meal plan, res fees (this ancillary stuff will add up quick), etc if you do get the boot, this leads me to be skeptical of the program.

That and I dont like to fly milk stools!

[fingersmac]

The final test that dictates the majority of the grade and the fact that you never see your test after it is graded (I can not think of a SINGLE real college that does that, for obvious reasons!)

Transport doesn't allow you to see your exams. The reason the college doesn't is because they reuse exams just like TC does.

yet they still have a safety record worse then some very liberally run flight schools that I have been to.

One incident I know of in 30+ years is a terrible safety record (not including the stolen airplane for obvious reasons)?

Add to that the 50% + failure rate (which is INSANE) in conjunction with a policy not to refund the mandatory meal plan, res fees (this ancillary stuff will add up quick), etc if you do get the boot, this leads me to be skeptical of the program.

Failures are attributed to the students themselves. The majority of students that washed up in my year weren't victims of any conspiracy. They just didn't apply themselves. The course is relatively easy as long as you put the time and effort into it. There were a few that put the time and effort in but just didn't have the academic ability to pass the college courses. That's unfortunate but such is life. It is spelled out clearly to all students that you must achieve 60% in non-aviation courses and 70% in aviation courses plus meet any training requirements in each semester. Those aren't very difficult targets to meet. Students have access to tutors and instructors were always available to go over things.

It's been said on here time and again that there is funding available for each and every student that enrols in the program.

As for the residence and meal plan fees, I agree with you. I think students should be refunded at least a portion of what they've paid. I can sort of understand the residence fee being kept because the room is reserved for the student for the entire year. Some years the residence is full so that is lost revenue. The meal plan however should be refunded. In fact from what I understand you don't even get a refund of whatever balance you have left on it at the end of the year unless it's over a certain amount. But that's to do with the arrangement that Aramark has with the college itself. I personally didn't stay in residence because it was overpriced.

[SuperchargedRS]

One incident I know of in 30+ years is a terrible safety record (not including the stolen airplane for obvious reasons)?

Failures are attributed to the students themselves. The majority of students that washed up in my year weren't victims of any conspiracy. They just didn't apply themselves. The course is relatively easy as long as you put the time and effort into it. There were a few that put the time and effort in but just didn't have the academic ability to pass the college courses. That's unfortunate but such is life. It is spelled out clearly to all students that you must achieve 60% in non-aviation courses and 70% in aviation courses plus meet any training requirements in each semester. Those aren't very difficult targets to meet. Students have access to tutors and instructors were always available to go over things.

I believe they have had 2 plus the 7500 just in the last few years, For how much they regulate the curriculum and where/when you can fly I find it odd that it is that high. It just shows that having a rule book 20 pages deep doesn't effect safety one bit. However limiting where and when your time building students can fly DOES limit their experience, thus DECREASING safety.

As far as the 50% + failure rate, COME ON!!! all the students fault?? 5%, 10%, hell I'll give you 15%, but over 50%!! You have to look elsewhere with numbers like that, statistically it's just not the norm (Unless Confed is using the NAVY SEALS training program lol).

Maintaining a good grade is not the issue, the issue is EVEN if you are passing all your classes with a high average, if you did (or rather ARE TOLD you did) poorly on that last test you F'ed. The argument about reusing the tests, COME ON for how much money is that school is making and they can go make up a new test! lol The issue here is a SERIOUS lack of transparency with a test that will make or break the entire program for these kids!

[AUGER9]

Get over yourself already, no one cares what you have to say.

[SuperchargedRS]

Get over yourself already, no one cares what you have to say.

And yet you post?




Businesses like confed are like nails on a chalk board for me lol

Lets give the people who are just starting their training ALL the facts (not just the confed coolaid) and let them do as they will, ok?

[AUGER9]

Then feed them facts, not BS made up statistics.

I believe they have had 2 plus the 7500 just in the last few years, For how much they regulate the curriculum and where/when you can fly I find it odd that it is that high. It just shows that having a rule book 20 pages deep doesn't effect safety one bit. However limiting where and when your time building students can fly DOES limit their experience, thus DECREASING safety.

As far as the 50% + failure rate, COME ON!!! all the students fault?? 5%, 10%, hell I'll give you 15%, but over 50%!! You have to look elsewhere with numbers like that, statistically it's just not the norm (Unless Confed is using the NAVY SEALS training program lol).

All false.

[SuperchargedRS]

You sure are sensitive buddy!

Ok, what is the failure rate then? We both know is right around half!

And a plane wasn't stolen in a suicide attempt, violating mounds of regs?

No one piled into the runway breaking the nose gear?

So a confed doesn't have a strict (and small) list for approved airports?

hmmm

And a near half the class sized failure rate seems normal for a trade school, couldn't be a sign of problems with the instruction/tests eh?

Ok Auger nows time for you to do your little spin job for confed, just let me go get my popcorn

[AUGER9]

I sent you a PM so as to not hijack this any further.

[fingersmac]

I believe they have had 2 plus the 7500 just in the last few years, For how much they regulate the curriculum and where/when you can fly I find it odd that it is that high

And a plane wasn't stolen in a suicide attempt, violating mounds of regs?

No one piled into the runway breaking the nose gear?

Where are you getting 7500?? You're plainly just making that up. They've had one incident in since at least the 1990s when the college took over the flight training. Just look up the CADORS. They've had 50 or so since the early 90s and they are all to do with minor infractions that generally happen as a result of being in a flight training environment.

Yes, you're right. The college has fixed routes for cross countries but there aren't many choices in North Western Ontario. Yes, it would be nice if there was more freedoms but there aren't.

As for the 50% drop out rate, once again it's only the fault of the students that could not pass the academics. If I remember correctly Sault College also has a high attrition rate for their program too. I'm not sure about Seneca College. Again, there is available funding at Confederation College for all students initially enrolled in the program.

And a plane wasn't stolen in a suicide attempt, violating mounds of regs?

This event had nothing to do with flight training at Confederation College so there is no reason to bring this event up.

[Slats]

I dont like some of their practices. The final test that dictates the majority of the grade

They highly regulate where the students can fly

Add to that the 50% + failure rate

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sour+grapes

Idioms & Phrases
sour grapes

Disparaging what one cannot obtain, as in The losers' scorn for the award is pure sour grapes. This expression alludes to the Greek writer Aesop's famous fable about a fox that cannot reach some grapes on a high vine and announces that they are sour.

[SuperchargedRS]

Damn Slats, your on the war path for me today lol

Dont care how many places have a poor failure rate, when the failure rate get as large as confed the problem exists outside the students.

The Stolen/Hijacked/Suicide attempt/ whatever you want to call it, happened with a confed flight training student in a confed flight training plane, at the confed flight training center (ACE).

Sour grapes, nope, not really I got all my training done and I couldnt be happier with how it went, not only did I reach the good grapes, I made wine

It is my STRONG opinion (if you haven't noticed lol) that confed has some serious issues. I just post some of the issues, if I save one of the kids that might end up loosing almost 10k with only 15 hours or so to show for it, then it is worth the small amount of time I spent going back and fourth with you guys.

I have said my piece and now I am done with this thread

[fingersmac]

The Stolen/Hijacked/Suicide attempt/ whatever you want to call it, happened with a confed flight training student in a confed flight training plane, at the confed flight training center (ACE).

But it's not relevant to the safety record of Confed as a flight training unit. That scenario could have happened anywhere.

If you think the failure rates are so terrible the what do you think should be done to improve them?

[Slats]

Damn Slats, your on the war path for me today lol

Seems that way, eh? Nothing personal, just one of those flukes of AvCanada-ing.

I just tend to agree with fingersmac's line of thinking on this one. I found that it was largely the case that the students who failed out were the ones that either really struggled academically or didn't take the course seriously enough (ie: would rather party than study.) None of the academic courses were terribly difficult, nothing that I hadn't already seen in high school. As for the groundschool and exam, well, all of the material (none of it terribly difficult) was presented in class. It's college, not high school and as such the onus is on the student to learn NOT the professor to spoon feed them. The prof presents the material; what the student does from there is up to them. If they have trouble with the concepts there are numerous avenues they can pursue to get the help and understanding that they need to be successful in the course. Part of being a college student is learning (if the person has not already) how to be self-sufficient. I think the college's 50% attrition rate is evidence of a system that works rather than a system that is broken. We all sit on AvCanada and bemoan the low standards in aviation licensing, yet here is a program where generally only the top 50% graduate. I'd dare say they could probably stand to tighten things up even more.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Damn Slats, your on the war path for me today lol

Seems that way, eh? Nothing personal, just one of those flukes of AvCanada-ing.

I just tend to agree with fingersmac's line of thinking on this one. I found that it was largely the case that the students who failed out were the ones that either really struggled academically or didn't take the course seriously enough (ie: would rather party than study.) None of the academic courses were terribly difficult, nothing that I hadn't already seen in high school. As for the groundschool and exam, well, all of the material (none of it terribly difficult) was presented in class. It's college, not high school and as such the onus is on the student to learn NOT the professor to spoon feed them. The prof presents the material; what the student does from there is up to them. If they have trouble with the concepts there are numerous avenues they can pursue to get the help and understanding that they need to be successful in the course. Part of being a college student is learning (if the person has not already) how to be self-sufficient. I think the college's 50% attrition rate is evidence of a system that works rather than a system that is broken. We all sit on AvCanada and bemoan the low standards in aviation licensing, yet here is a program where generally only the top 50% graduate. I'd dare say they could probably stand to tighten things up even more.

I am all in favour of higher standards but pilot standards have two elements "knowledge" and "flying skills". Book learning is of no value if the flying skills are not there to be able to utilize the knowledge. So if your "top 50%" represent the top half of the class in both areas than I would say well done. But if one of the graduates got the top academic marks but only just managed to get a passing score on the flight test (as was the case for one individual I knew) than I would argue the standards have not really been raised over what you get at "Joes Flying School".

[AUGER9]

I am all in favour of higher standards but pilot standards have two elements "knowledge" and "flying skills". Book learning is of no value if the flying skills are not there to be able to utilize the knowledge. So if your "top 50%" represent the top half of the class in both areas than I would say well done. But if one of the graduates got the top academic marks but only just managed to get a passing score on the flight test (as was the case for one individual I knew) than I would argue the standards have not really been raised over what you get at "Joes Flying School".

Good point. Just as the aviation ground classes go, the flying portion also requires a 70% mark on the flight test in order to pass (about 55 hours is alloted to each student for this). So, just managing a passing score, as you put it, doesn't qualify. And it is pretty rare that someone doesn't meet this requirement, maybe 1 student every year.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am all in favour of higher standards but pilot standards have two elements "knowledge" and "flying skills". Book learning is of no value if the flying skills are not there to be able to utilize the knowledge. So if your "top 50%" represent the top half of the class in both areas than I would say well done. But if one of the graduates got the top academic marks but only just managed to get a passing score on the flight test (as was the case for one individual I knew) than I would argue the standards have not really been raised over what you get at "Joes Flying School".

Good point. Just as the aviation ground classes go, the flying portion also requires a 70% mark on the flight test in order to pass (about 55 hours is alloted to each student for this). So, just managing a passing score, as you put it, doesn't qualify. And it is pretty rare that someone doesn't meet this requirement, maybe 1 student every year.

70% is the TC mandated min score for the CPL. If achieving this repersents a "higher standard" than I call BS. You can pass the CPL with numerous exercises assesed as a "2" or specifically

Performance is observed to include major errors:

•Aircraft handling is performed with major deviations and/or an occasional lack of stability, over/under control or abrupt control input.


•Technical skills reveal deficiencies either in depth of knowledge or comprehension of procedures, aircraft systems, limitations and performance characteristics that do not prevent the successful completion of the task.


•Situational awareness appears compromised as cues are missed or attended to late or the candidate takes more time than ideal to incorporate cues or changes into the operational plan.


•Flight management skills are not consistent. Instrument displays, aircraft warnings or automation serve to avert an undesired aircraft state by prompting or remedying threats and errors that are noticed late.


•Safety margins are not compromised, but poorly managed

Frankly I amazed that one can pass the CPL flight test with such a low standard ....but that is another debate. Unless the college program can demonstrate how they will not permit a student to graduate unless they exceed the TC mandated min standards by a substantial margin than I think your contention of a higher standard is not supported by teh facts of the matter.