How many of you are atheists, agnostic, or religious?

[reality check]

You create your own meaning in life, meaning in life doesn't create you.

BTD

I beg to differ, the Meaning of Life had an awful lot to do with my creation. Really.

Meaningoflife.jpg (55.69 KiB) Viewed 1491 times

Ooooooh. You said "in" life. My bad.

[vrrotate]

So I think the poll should be changed to

Atheist
Agnostic
or Theist

[Topspin]

I'm comfortable believing that science doesn't always have all the answers. If I wanted a warm and fuzzy believe, I'd be an athiest. Atheism has no moral convictions, no right or wrong, it concludes that nothing really matters.

?

You're suggesting that those that choose atheism lack moral convictions, perception of right & wrong? One cannot be an atheist, and have a sense of right and wrong?

I tend to take Einstein's position on that:

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.

And what matters is chosen by the individual, not the organization. I bet I can find an awful lot of religious folk who's end game goals do not align with there particular organization.

[BTD]

Sometimes people assume that if something is branded science it is automatically true, and if something is branded religion is is automatically fairytale.

Of course you can believe what you would like. The only reason I joined this debate is because people started discussing Evolution, and it was obvious that what evolution actually is was misunderstood.

Calling something science doesn't make it true. Following the scientific method is our best process to determine with evidence whether something is true or not. The scientific method by definition allows itself to be corrected if it fails its own test.

I'm comfortable believing that science doesn't always have all the answers.

Science doesn't claim to have all the answers. But it does, actively search for them. And over the course of time has explained away many of the unexplainable things many of which had previously been explained by a religious belief.

If I wanted a warm and fuzzy believe, I'd be an athiest. Atheism has no heaven or hell, no moral convictions, no right or wrong, it concludes that nothing really matters.

Of course Atheism itself doesn't have any moral convictions, because atheism is not a collection of of people living by a moral code, looking to a higher being like religion is. An atheist themselves has moral convictions though, as I'm sure you and I would live our live with almost the identical sense of right and wrong. As Dawkins says "if you are not living by all teachings of your holy book, you are picking what you like by some criteria. A criteria you already have, that you and I share." (Paraphrased)

Atheism itself doesn't conclude anything. It is a lack of belief in a higher being due to a lack of evidence. You have concluded that through an Atheists eyes nothing matters. Each individual will find their own meaning in their life.

Talk about freedom and no responsibility. Most major religions have a hell, which may be warm, but sure not fuzzy. Honestly, IMO, atheism seems like escapism, nothing really matters do your own thing nothing to gain nothing to loose.

However, as was said above, if the argument is that religious people have "good" morals because of a fear of hell or not going to heaven, that doesn't make them a good person, it is a method to control the masses.

When you die and become fertilizer, you don't even have memories, life could could be the best or the worst vacation you ever had, but the pictures didn't turn out.

If this is the case it doesn't bother me. It makes my life now no less meaningful. And perhaps more important.

You create your own meaning in life, meaning in life doesn't create you.

BTD

I beg to differ, the Meaning of Life had an awful lot to do with my creation. Really.

Meaningoflife.jpg

Ooooooh. You said "in" life. My bad.

Never got into Meaning of Life. But love "Life of Brian", and "Holy Grail"

BTD

[DeltaHotel]

Invertago wrote:
I'm comfortable believing that science doesn't always have all the answers. If I wanted a warm and fuzzy believe, I'd be an athiest. Atheism has no moral convictions, no right or wrong, it concludes that nothing really matters.

No moral convictions? No right or wrong ?

Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions. (George Bernard)

This attitude of yours is barbaric, over dated and wrong.

[Slats]

I do believe in natural selection, things die out, but there are too many missing links for me to call my great great great grandfather a fish with stubby legs.

Funny you should mention that, I found this while I was researching the ol' family tree on ancestry.com:

[Slats]

This attitude of yours is barbaric, over dated and wrong.

Guess what, so is yours:

It is inconceivable to me that this day and age; ''most'' people are still beleivers in a higher power. I think this is a social disgrace!..............The enlighten minds in our society know better............

People can and will believe whatever they want. Remember, just because you think you're more "enlightened" than them, doesn't mean you actually are. But feel free to believe so; just don't push that belief on me..........hey it's just like religion.

[Driving Rain]

Belief.... J. Mayer

Is there anyone who
Ever remembers changing their mind from
The paint on a sign?
Is there anyone who really recalls
Ever breaking rank at all
For something someone yelled real loud one time

Everyone believes
In how they think it ought to be
Everyone believes
And they're not going easily

Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword
Like punching under water
You never can hit who you're trying for

Some need the exhibition
And some have to know they tried
It's the chemical weapon
For the war that's raging on inside

Everyone believes
From emptiness to everything
Everyone believes
And no ones going quietly

We're never gonna win the world
We're never gonna stop the war
We're never gonna beat this
If belief is what we're fighting for

What puts a hundred thousand children in the sand
Belief can
Belief can
What puts the folded flag inside his mother's hand
Belief can
Belief can

Hey OhKiE DoHkIe....

I hear the Catholic Church has a new Communion Host (Eucharistic bread) for healthy parishioners.

Not only is it pure and white but it has zero calories and zero cholesterol.

It's marketed under the name "I Can't Believe it's Not Jesus."

[Invertago]

Well, I'm going to have to move on from this thread as interesting as it has been. I have learned a few new things here however. I now see more reason to believe atheism is just another religion.

1. Atheism has very passionate followers (some pretty emotional atheists on here)

2. Christianity has its bible thumpers, but atheism has its Dawkins thumpers. (I've been Dawkins thumped on here a few times now)

3. Atheists feel the need to convert you to atheism otherwise they label you ignorant, backwards and foolish.

4. Atheists get very offended if you question their belief system. (very sensitive to criticism)

5. Oh, and seems Mr Dawkins is the atheist pope now... (changes every few years).

I'm was not trying to convert anyone to my thinking here and I wasn't seeking to provoke or taunt anyone elses beliefs here.

It was an interesting conversation while it remained a debate, now it has simply becoming an angry argument. It was a pleasant surprise to see the theist side of the debate not biting the hook with the "Happy dead Jesus weekend" provocative comment. Even if you don't believe in him, is it constructive to tease someone on a topic sensitive to them But either way, that grave is empty now

I'd also like to conclude by saying, I don't think atheists are a backwards and foolish bunch, you're entitled to your own beliefs what ever they may be, it is a free country and I fully support freedom of religion.

I am surprised this thread made it 5 pages with out being pulled, so on that note, congratulations to all involved. Anyhow, I've got an atpl to study for and I've procrastinated long enough.

Have fun, and lets keep it friendly out there, no need for any more avcanada holy wars.

[Topspin]

Invertago, I believe you are making the mistake of painting all atheists with the same brush, when it is just the die-hards you refer to. Much the same as die-hard religious types directed at atheists, it works both ways.

I'd say atheism can be a region, but isn't by default and it's not entirely unusual for somebody to say, "I don't believe in a deity, and don't need to direct anymore thought to the matter, I don't care."

[Hedley]

It's funny how the word "atheist" is spit out and clearly used as a pejorative here.

I'm sure many religious people might (mis)label me as an atheist, merely because I don't worship their particular flavour of the ju-ju of the mountain. They take it as a personal insult that I don't do and think exactly the same as they do, which I find narrow-minded. Burn the witch, burn the witch. Sigh.

I'm not saying any particular religion (which is incompatible with all the other religions) is incorrect at explaining the universe. But you must admit that the probability of any one of them being correct is astronomically small, given their abysmal track records.

Anyways, I sure hope a lot of people find happiness in religion, to compensate for creating untold misery and suffering throughout history.

[Morav]

Invertago, atheism is the lack of belief in a higher power, not a belief.

I see no one getting angry, BTD is simply correcting your preconceived notions of atheists.

Evolution, is not a belief, it is an accepted scientific fact that has survived the rigors of the scientific method. Natural selection is a Theory that supports Evolution.

From wikipedia:
"The statement "evolution is both a theory and a fact" is often seen in biological literature.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] The "fact of evolution" refers to the changes in the genetic material of a population of biological organisms over time, which are known to have occurred through scientific observations and experiments. The "theory of evolution" refers to the modern evolutionary synthesis, which is the current scientific explanation of how these changes occur. Misuse and misunderstanding of these terms have been employed in the construction of arguments to dispute the validity of the theory of evolution."

Belief has no place in science. Until someone is able to hypothesis a better explanation to the origins of our species, Evolution will remain our best explanation. When a hypothesis can pass the scientific method through numerous experimental studies and careful observation by many scientists then it will be accepted as a Theory. When a theory is very very accurate it is generally accepted as FACT.

The theory that the earth rotates around the sun, is a theory as well, however, it is accepted by the majority as a fact. It is just such a great explanation how our solar system works! It has been proven through observation and thousands of experiments. Just because you aren't floating in space and can't actually see the earth rotate around the earth does not disprove it. Same goes with evolution, just because you weren't around for the billions of years to see it happen does not disprove it.

Invertago it sounds to me like your belief is getting in the way of your critical thinking.


What good is a belief if it cannot be tested? It just seems like a waste of time to me.

[iflyforpie]

Invertago, atheism is the lack of belief in a higher power, not a belief.

Atheism is the belief that there is no higher power. Like religious and theistic beliefs, they come in all kinds of flavors, both good and bad. Anybody who thinks that world religion has caused all the worlds problems never spent time in godless societies like the USSR, the PRC, Albania, and the like.

The problems people describe are not caused by God, but by man. It is so ingrained in human nature to believe something that even when you take away God, people will do the same actions.

For those who put their faith in the supposed inerrancy of science, you will be disappointed. I can think of several examples off-hand where science was misunderstood (the theory of flight in FTGU), falsified (Robert Peary's trek to the North Pole), or extremely controversial in current debate (global warming). 'Scientists' like Dawkins who are obviously out-spoken atheists, have a lot to lose and little to gain by finding facts that don't support evolution. Public status, book deals, even the destruction of their own beliefs.

So don't go on about Atheism as being not a belief. If I showed you a God particle, most Atheists would be endlessly skeptical...


As for morality, you don't have to be theistic to have morals. But there can only be a moral majority in the atheist world. That means if 51% of people decide killing Jews is okay, then it is okay. I prefer to believe that there is an absolute morality...

If you want a system that doesn't involve beliefs, agnostic is the one for you.

[Morav]

Invertago, atheism is the lack of belief in a higher power, not a belief.

-Weak atheism

Atheism is the belief that there is no higher power

- Strong atheism

I guess I should of said atheism to the weak atheist is that lack of belief in a higher power. (that is me )

Anybody who thinks that world religion has caused all the worlds problems never spent time in godless societies like the USSR

Stalin totalitarian regime desired absolute power, and to gain it they made away with religion and replaced it with themselves.
I'm sure they used the same methods of mass control religion has been using for the past 2000 years.

If you want a system that doesn't involve beliefs, agnostic is the one for you.

Agnosticism is the belief in a higher power whose nature is unknown to humans and unknowable.

So don't go on about Atheism as being not a belief. If I showed you a God particle, most Atheists would be endlessly skeptical...

What is so wrong with critical thinking?

[OhKiE DoHkIe]

I am surprised this thread made it 5 pages with out being pulled, so on that note, congratulations to all involved. Anyhow, I've got an atpl to study for and I've procrastinated long enough.

Have fun, and lets keep it friendly out there, no need for any more avcanada holy wars.

This much we can agree on. Thanks for being a BIG part of this thread Invertago...

My "Happy Dead Jesus Day" (Good Friday) remark was perhaps inappropriate and insensitive...BUT after reading your posts and others I got the feeling the contributors on both sides of the debate in this thread would take it for face value. Playful rib jabbing. Ohkie Dohkie?!

Good luck on your ATPL exam!

"God" bless

[Tommyboy]

Hi Ladies and Gents,

Just reading through the threads that everybody was writing from start to end. Interesting stuff! Seeing what has been written, I couldn't imagine what the consequences would be having this discussion about Islam in the Middle East, and some parts of Asia or even about religion at all, in places like China. I have done some research on these topics myself just for personal interest, and have come across an intriguing and well educated speaker on these subjects. (Google him for his educational background if you want) I believe he is a Christian, but is he has an un-candid ability to debate the higher intellectual/philosophical/scientific things, but simplify it to so that even I might understand it. So those of you who are open to different perspectives as I am, I've posted some Debates/speaking engagements below if your interested. I understand by posting this, it will probably cause another debate, but I think this guy is able to put perspectives on subjects that I hadn't considered before.
Another documentary I thought was pretty good was Ben Stein's Expelled. He even talks to Richard Dawkins, which was a rather entertaining part. Food for thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0fImg64yok Ravi Zacherias Atheastic Evolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRP0I2SrVs Ravi Zacharias, Is the Bible a true document?

Enjoy!

[flyinthebug]

Invertago, atheism is the lack of belief in a higher power, not a belief.

I see no one getting angry, BTD is simply correcting your preconceived notions of atheists.

Evolution, is not a belief, it is an accepted scientific fact that has survived the rigors of the scientific method. Natural selection is a Theory that supports Evolution.

The greatest scientific minds of the 1500`s and 1600`s believed the earth was flat. Does that make it so?

From wikipedia:
"The statement "evolution is both a theory and a fact" is often seen in biological literature.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] The "fact of evolution" refers to the changes in the genetic material of a population of biological organisms over time, which are known to have occurred through scientific observations and experiments.

Morav.. You make some good points but using "wiki" to back up your position is kind of minor league. Did you ever attend college? Do you know that wiki isnt even accepted in college anymore as a credible source for an assignment let alone to be used as FACT.? Dont the true athiests understand that if you dont like something on Wiki, you simply edit it? You can edit it, I can edit it, anyone can edit it. So wiki is not a very reliable source to disprove the existance of god. Thats what you used in BOLD letter to drive your point home. Im sorry, but in 5 mins I can go and change what is on wiki and does that then change your position? or mine? If your going to use science to disprove the existance of God, you might want to use a better source for your reference. That said, you are correct to point out that many athiests do believe in something and should not all be painted with the same brush. I`ll say it again as Darkwing said a few pages earlier.. If Im wrong im wrong for a lifetime and if your wrong your wrong for eternity.

Many of my christian friends think the world is coming to an end in 2012 (due to the Mayan calender etc). I find these people to be fanatical and over the top..But I do respect their beliefs, the same way I respect your beliefs. I just get fed up with "science" trying to disprove a god that is so obviously (to me) REAL.
*Steps off soapbox*...as you were...

Fly safe all

[Morav]

Dont the true athiests understand that if you dont like something on Wiki, you simply edit it? You can edit it

So is wikipedia now part of the atheist agenda?? I quoted only a definition from wikipedia which I thought explained the difference between the Theory of Evolution and the Fact of Evolution quite well. You will often hear creationists claim that evolution is just a theory and that it's not true if you don't believe in it.

If your going to use science to disprove the existance of God, you might want to use a better source for your reference.

I never did try to disprove the existence of god.

If I'm wrong im wrong for a lifetime and if your wrong your wrong for eternity.

If your wrong you've wasted a life time. I try to the best of my ability to know the extent of my ignorance. I know enough to know that I really don't know if there is a god, and I probably never will. What makes you think your religion is any more right than the countless others?

I find these people to be fanatical and over the top..But I do respect their beliefs, the same way I respect your beliefs. I just get fed up with "science" trying to disprove a god that is so obviously (to me) REA

How do you respect their beliefs anymore than I respect yours?

I respect your freedom of speech and of free thought, I don't necessarily have to agree with it.

[parallel60]

Appreciate all the posts so far and hopefully this thead stays down the current civil road.

Hoping for anyones thought on this.....

In the movie "Contact" the two main characters get involved in an interesting topic.

Jodie Fosters character(Dr.Ellie Arroway) who is a strong minded atheist in the movie on a search for intellegent life outside of earth in the Universe after having received a radio signal from a near star(Vega), and Matt McConaughey's character Palmer Joss who is a man of faith and a Religious Advisor to the President after the signal was recieved.

In this portion of the script I pulled off the net, Foster and McConaughey are discussing eachothers belief's and makes for an interesting view from McConaughey. He is describing to Ellie the moment he had his calling to Faith and God.

This seems like exactly what this thread has been about, convincing another person of their beliefs and this portion of the movie shows that either belief, religion or atheism is neither right or wrong. Note: Ellie's parents both died before she was 10

JOSS
I had... an experience. Of
belonging. Of unconditional love.
And for the first time in my life I
wasn't terrified, and I wasn't
alone.

ELLIE
(delicately)
And there's no chance you had this
experience simply because some part
of you needed to have it?

JOSS
Look, I'm a reasonable person, and
reasonably intelligent. But this
experience went beyond both. For
the first time I had to consider the
possibility that intellect, as
wonderful as it is, is not the only
way of comprehending the universe.
That it was too small and inadequate
a tool to deal with what it was I was
faced with.

ELLIE


You may not believe this... but
there's a part of me that wants more
than anything to believe in your
God. To believe that we're all here
for a purpose, that all this...
means something. But it's because
that part of me wants it so badly
that I'm so stubborn about making
sure it isn't just self-delusion.
Of course I want to know God if
there is one... but it has to be
real. Unless I have proof how can I
be sure?

JOSS
Do you love your parents?

ELLIE
(startled)
I never knew my mother. My father
died when I was nine.

JOSS
Did you love him?

ELLIE

Yes. Very much.

JOSS
Prove it.


I doubt anyone on here would question whether or not we all have loved family members, friends, partners etc. Yet, can we actually prove that we loved them to others? Probably not, but that doesn't mean the feeling and belief of love for those people doesn't exist. Yet, when it comes to a person's belief in a religion or God, we are so easy to question it. Why?

Personally, I don't know if either atheism or the existance of God is true or false, although I hope for the latter(existance of God). All I know is that I'm still searching for the truth and hoping to find it someday, either way.

Opinions and thoughts welcome.

[hairdo]

Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into the World Trade Center

Nope, fanaticism flew men into the WTC.

[Brewguy]

Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into the World Trade Center

Nope, fanaticism flew men into the WTC.

Actually, you're both wrong, yet both right. Religious fanaticism flew men into the WTC. Or rather, if we want to get technical about, religious fanaticism caused men to allow themselves to be talked into flying airplanes into the WTC.

In any case, did anyone else watch 'The Hour' on CBC last night? Richard Dawkins and Chris Hedges were the guests. It was very interesting.

[Hedley]

did anyone else watch 'The Hour' on CBC last night?

Nope - I religiously never watch the Communist Broadcasting Corporation

Religious fanaticism flew men into the WTC

It's funny watching people trying to distance themselves from their next door neighbour

[Brewguy]

What do you mean by that?

[flyinthebug]

edit (personal)

[Morav]

edit (personal)

don't take it so personal, lol.