Congrats to the crew on a job well done - it's a warm and fuzzy feeling when one sees the training kick in and the end result is like a perfect sim session --
Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
I think that part of the problem -- seems more that often things start rolling with very little or no information - when I first read the initial post it seemed to me to be more of a generic question but based on a particular incident -- then as anything else here the monster is born --
Congrats to the crew on a job well done - it's a warm and fuzzy feeling when one sees the training kick in and the end result is like a perfect sim session --
Congrats to the crew on a job well done - it's a warm and fuzzy feeling when one sees the training kick in and the end result is like a perfect sim session --
Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight
ACTPA
ACTPA
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
[quote="Hawkerflyer"]Steve, If people want to follow Boeing's report in the heat of the moment, all the power to them.
Cheers[/quote]
Exactly what we should all plan to do. Unless of course they want to explain to a Safety Board that some guy named HawkerFlyer gave me some advice on an internet forum different than Boeing's advice and that is why an aircraft was written off due to a blown tire.
Cheers[/quote]
Exactly what we should all plan to do. Unless of course they want to explain to a Safety Board that some guy named HawkerFlyer gave me some advice on an internet forum different than Boeing's advice and that is why an aircraft was written off due to a blown tire.
Last edited by pelmet on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hawkerflyer
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Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
Pelmet, relax bud. I am not telling people what to do, besides I would think most people in here would use there own judgment as a pilot. Read the posts on this topic. Im am not alone.
Last edited by Hawkerflyer on Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Six of us broke formation, five Jerries and I". - George "Buzz" Beurling
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Hawkerflyer
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Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
And besides, I'm more of an airbus guy 
"Six of us broke formation, five Jerries and I". - George "Buzz" Beurling
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
Airbus also says to continue the take-offHawkerflyer wrote:And besides, I'm more of an airbus guy
http://www.airbus.com/store/mm_reposito ... -SEQ04.pdf
Posted this earlier in the thread.Tire burst in the V1 minus 20 kt to V1 range: Unless debris from the tires have caused serious engine malfunctions, it is far better to get airborne, reduce the fuel load, or proceed for an overweight landing, and land with a full runway length available
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Hawkerflyer
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Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
It also says,
Above 100 kt and below V1
"Abort for any malfunction where there is doubt that the aircraft will fly safely"
BTD...lol, thanks. Ive seen it in the past. It was a joke. I do not fly an Airbus.
You know fellas, I'm glad to see all the posts here on this thread and everyone has a great thoughts. In the end, the captain has to make the right call. Lots of runway will make for an easier decision. Shorter runway well...so many things to consider. The fact is every situation is going to be different.
Thanks for the great response, it is interesting to see how each would potentially respond to such an event. Pelmet, that was all I wanted to see. My actions in an airplane do not reflect what I hear on a forum. I would think the same of everyone.
Above 100 kt and below V1
"Abort for any malfunction where there is doubt that the aircraft will fly safely"
BTD...lol, thanks. Ive seen it in the past. It was a joke. I do not fly an Airbus.
You know fellas, I'm glad to see all the posts here on this thread and everyone has a great thoughts. In the end, the captain has to make the right call. Lots of runway will make for an easier decision. Shorter runway well...so many things to consider. The fact is every situation is going to be different.
Thanks for the great response, it is interesting to see how each would potentially respond to such an event. Pelmet, that was all I wanted to see. My actions in an airplane do not reflect what I hear on a forum. I would think the same of everyone.
"Six of us broke formation, five Jerries and I". - George "Buzz" Beurling
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
Awesome thread Hawkerflyer.
I got the joke, that's why I had the smile in there too.
As you said each circumstance is going to require an individual reaction. I only jumped in here because it looked to me like some people were under an assumption about what V1 actually is.
As I said at the beginning of the thread, stopping may be the best call. Especially if you are light and have 12000 ft of runway in front of you. There is a feeling when you line up on a runway like that, that is different from the feeling when lining up on a short runway at a weight limit. I like to use that feeling to my advantage in circumstances that are abnormal.
If you do decide to stop on a runway near limits, you must consider that there is a high probability of an overrun, even if that is still the correct decision.
Good discussion.
BTD
I got the joke, that's why I had the smile in there too.
As you said each circumstance is going to require an individual reaction. I only jumped in here because it looked to me like some people were under an assumption about what V1 actually is.
As I said at the beginning of the thread, stopping may be the best call. Especially if you are light and have 12000 ft of runway in front of you. There is a feeling when you line up on a runway like that, that is different from the feeling when lining up on a short runway at a weight limit. I like to use that feeling to my advantage in circumstances that are abnormal.
If you do decide to stop on a runway near limits, you must consider that there is a high probability of an overrun, even if that is still the correct decision.
Good discussion.
BTD
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Hawkerflyer
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Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
Couldnt agree more!
"Six of us broke formation, five Jerries and I". - George "Buzz" Beurling
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
[quote="Hawkerflyer"]Pelmet, relax bud. I am not telling people what to do.[/quote]
I never did say you were telling people what to do. But you opened up the thread by saying that they would be "crazy" to do what as it turns out, Boeing and Airbus say to do. You said "If you have a blown tire you are not likely to make your V1 let alone your Vr". I disagree and feel that it was, as a blanket statement, very poor advice that could have a negative effect on someone.
I never did say you were telling people what to do. But you opened up the thread by saying that they would be "crazy" to do what as it turns out, Boeing and Airbus say to do. You said "If you have a blown tire you are not likely to make your V1 let alone your Vr". I disagree and feel that it was, as a blanket statement, very poor advice that could have a negative effect on someone.
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
Going through the replies, it would appear most everyone agrees on stopping the aircraft for a tire failure below 80-100 knots. And almost everyone agrees to continue the take-off should it occur after V1. It seems the most debate is in the critical speed range found between those points in the take-off. I think it really comes down to the type of aircraft you are operating.
Looking at the multi-engine aircraft I have operated, the first few all had V1 and Vr at pretty much the same speed. In regards to a tire failure during take-off, below V1 they weren't going flying and were headed for the weeds before you had time to think what was happening. The aircraft I fly now is a bit more advanced, so I looked into what I could find about this subject. On that aircraft, the main landing gear assemblies have 2 wheels each and each wheel has a brake. The anti-skid system monitors each wheel for a skidding condition and will modulate the hydraulic pressure to minimize wheel skid. Should a tire fail, a locked wheel condition is detected as the failed tire speed falls below 30% of the other wheel on the assembly and braking is lost on both wheels on that side. The Anti-skid off light comes on and anti-skid must be selected off to allow braking to occur. So you will either have no braking on one side or no anti-skid protection for all the brakes. To get an idea how much no anti-skid protection will impact stopping distance, looking at the procedure for dispatching with the anti-skid system off, it is recommended to increase the required take-off distance by 50%. So unless I have more than twice the required Accelerate/Stop distance available, I will be continuing the take-off should a tire fail in that speed range above 80 knots and V1.
Some have suggested that reverse thrust will help slow the aircraft. To a certain extent, this is true. Turboprops have the advantage here as discing/reversing the props can provide excellent braking to a complete stop. Some jets can use reverse thrust in an emergency to a complete stop but as the speed decreases, so does the effectiveness of that thrust. Other jets are limited to idle reverse below a certain speed by the FADEC programming, as is the case in the aircraft I fly. As the speed decreases, so does the amount of reverse thrust until it reached idle reverse thrust at 60 knots. So I know I can't depend on that below that speed.
As for damage to the aircraft from tire debris, again, it comes down to the design of your aircraft. For the aircraft I fly, the engines are mounted on the rear fuselage but should be protected for the most part by the wing. The flaps are going to take the brunt of the damage but shouldn't affect the flying characteristics too gravely. In the remote chance the debris punctures the wing, most of the systems are routed such that nothing major is damaged. Fuel may be lost but that helps reduce the landing weight for the return. The most likely hydraulic damage will be on the brakes and further loss of fluid is protected by check valves. Some aircraft may be more susceptible to damage from tire debris but I'm pretty confident that most designs take that situation into account before the aircraft is ever delivered to the first customer.
Overall, it all comes down to the guidance supplied by the manufacturer, the procedures laid out by the operator and the experience/knowledge of the pilot(s).
Looking at the multi-engine aircraft I have operated, the first few all had V1 and Vr at pretty much the same speed. In regards to a tire failure during take-off, below V1 they weren't going flying and were headed for the weeds before you had time to think what was happening. The aircraft I fly now is a bit more advanced, so I looked into what I could find about this subject. On that aircraft, the main landing gear assemblies have 2 wheels each and each wheel has a brake. The anti-skid system monitors each wheel for a skidding condition and will modulate the hydraulic pressure to minimize wheel skid. Should a tire fail, a locked wheel condition is detected as the failed tire speed falls below 30% of the other wheel on the assembly and braking is lost on both wheels on that side. The Anti-skid off light comes on and anti-skid must be selected off to allow braking to occur. So you will either have no braking on one side or no anti-skid protection for all the brakes. To get an idea how much no anti-skid protection will impact stopping distance, looking at the procedure for dispatching with the anti-skid system off, it is recommended to increase the required take-off distance by 50%. So unless I have more than twice the required Accelerate/Stop distance available, I will be continuing the take-off should a tire fail in that speed range above 80 knots and V1.
Some have suggested that reverse thrust will help slow the aircraft. To a certain extent, this is true. Turboprops have the advantage here as discing/reversing the props can provide excellent braking to a complete stop. Some jets can use reverse thrust in an emergency to a complete stop but as the speed decreases, so does the effectiveness of that thrust. Other jets are limited to idle reverse below a certain speed by the FADEC programming, as is the case in the aircraft I fly. As the speed decreases, so does the amount of reverse thrust until it reached idle reverse thrust at 60 knots. So I know I can't depend on that below that speed.
As for damage to the aircraft from tire debris, again, it comes down to the design of your aircraft. For the aircraft I fly, the engines are mounted on the rear fuselage but should be protected for the most part by the wing. The flaps are going to take the brunt of the damage but shouldn't affect the flying characteristics too gravely. In the remote chance the debris punctures the wing, most of the systems are routed such that nothing major is damaged. Fuel may be lost but that helps reduce the landing weight for the return. The most likely hydraulic damage will be on the brakes and further loss of fluid is protected by check valves. Some aircraft may be more susceptible to damage from tire debris but I'm pretty confident that most designs take that situation into account before the aircraft is ever delivered to the first customer.
Overall, it all comes down to the guidance supplied by the manufacturer, the procedures laid out by the operator and the experience/knowledge of the pilot(s).
Have Pratts - Will Travel
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
Date : 06-04-2010
A10Q0040: The Airbus A330, registered C-GHKW and operated by Air Canada was on takeoff roll from Frankfurt, Germany when the flight crew experienced excessive nosewheel shimmy. With all indications normal the flight continued to Montreal where the emergency services were requested to be on standby for a possible tire failure. The aircraft landed without further incident on runway 24R.The number 3 right main wheel had lost the thread and some damages were observed to the main landing gear doors, the wheel well and flap surface. Two of the main landing gear tires were required to be changed prior to moving the aircraft. Passengers were deplaned and transported to the terminal.
A10Q0040: The Airbus A330, registered C-GHKW and operated by Air Canada was on takeoff roll from Frankfurt, Germany when the flight crew experienced excessive nosewheel shimmy. With all indications normal the flight continued to Montreal where the emergency services were requested to be on standby for a possible tire failure. The aircraft landed without further incident on runway 24R.The number 3 right main wheel had lost the thread and some damages were observed to the main landing gear doors, the wheel well and flap surface. Two of the main landing gear tires were required to be changed prior to moving the aircraft. Passengers were deplaned and transported to the terminal.
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
"Fuel may be lost but that helps reduce the landing weight for the return."
Scuse me??
Scuse me??
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
Hawkerflyer wrote:Hey all,
As per the discusion with the WestJst blown tire, I have been surprised as to the amount of people who would continue the take off phase prior to V1. To me thats crazy! Personally, Im stopping the aircraft! If you have a blown tire you are not likely to make your V1 let alone your Vr. Think of the other issues that could arise to this, damaged airframe, fire etc.
Lets get some thoughts on this and please keep it a healthy debat
Like I said, anything before V1 (decision speed) and im stopping the airplane.
Cheers
I have no idea why this fellow would say this, especially on a transport category A/C.
On our AFM there are only four things to reject for above 80kts.
fire indication
engine failure
windshear alert
A/C unsafe to fly
ONE blown tire, unless causing engine/ flight control problems is not considered unsafe as it is perfectly able to depart and return on the remaining tire. that is why it is not part of the reject criteria.
BTW, myself I would never never never reject after V1 regardless of runway length... on my ac.
Re: Blown Tire...to abort or continue prior to V1
Poor man's fuel dump?!?xsbank wrote:"Fuel may be lost but that helps reduce the landing weight for the return."
Scuse me??
Have Pratts - Will Travel
