Jumpseat with Porter

[arsenal]

At PD we were told that it was AC who gave 30 days notice to cancel due to on-going court action.

[mattedfred]

thanks

i wonder what those at AC were told

the truth often lies somewhere in the middle

[Disco Stu]

mattedfred,

I spoke with a flight ops manager at AC shortly after the agreement was signed, who said that unless the policy was changed to pilots only the agreement wasn't going to last long. Infact it wasn't noticed until AFTER it was signed that Porter was including FAs.

There are many other airlines that we at AC have agreements with that charge fees for jumpseaters. There is no contradiction here. Reciprical Jump Seat agreements are between pilot groups, not pilot and fa groups. Fees have no bearing on this discussion at all.

[mattedfred]

why did AC sign the agreement if they didn't like the conditions in the first place?

so AC is fine with paying WJ but not fine with PD allowing FA's to get in line?

[Disco Stu]

why did AC sign the agreement if they didn't like the conditions in the first place?

so AC is fine with paying WJ but not fine with PD allowing FA's to get in line?

The signing of the agreement despite the FA rules was an oversight. Unfortunately the MLO who signed it off noticed the FA inclusion after he had already signed on.

And as for your second point, the answer is yes. Why is that so obviously difficult for you to understand?

[mattedfred]

it seems odd to me that AC would accept an agreement that contains a fee and object to one that includes FA's

one would think that neither would be acceptable as AC does not charge a fee or include FA's

[mattedfred]

do any of you AC folk know whether ACPA is actively lobbying TC to allow non-AC pilots to occupy the actual JS on AC flights?

There is already an exemption available for any Canadian company to permit commuting pilots from other companies to use the actual jump seat:

The purpose of this exemption is to permit Canadian air operators who wish to offer their flight deck jump seat to commuting pilots and their pilots-in-command to grant admission to the flight deck of their aeroplane on domestic flights to pilots employed by other Canadian air operators commuting to or from their flight assignments, subject to the conditions below.

If a company chooses to make the seat available to a commuting pilot, they must then comply with the conditions of the exemption as well. However, as yycflyguy has indicated in the other thread, Air Canada has apparently chosen not to make use of the exemption from the regulatory limitations of 705.27. It appears from the exemptions database that it was first made available in 2008.

CD,

My understanding is that carriers such as AC have refused to pay for any requirements of the identity screening regulations. The sticking point is the ability to confirm that the pilot requesting the jumpseat is a pilot actively employed by the company indicated on their RAIC at the time they request the jumpseat. in the US they have CASS which satisfies their identity screening regulations. I have been told that US carriers were not required to pay for all or even part of CASS.

Perhaps you or someone else could shed some light on this?

thanks again

[CD]

I'm not overly famliar with CASS but it seems that any US airline that wants to permit the use of their physical jumpseat on the flight deck must buy into the software and service, which appears to be managed by ARINC. Here are a few links with info:

ARINC to Roll Out a Permanent Cockpit Access Security System for Airlines
ARINC and Airlines Deploying Web-Based Cockpit Access System
ARINC: Cockpit Access Security System (CASS)

The ARINC site also implies that CASS is used by airlines outside the US as well so, theoretically, I would think that it could be considered for use by Canadian airlines as a means to comply with the identity verification requirements of the exemption. In the US, it appears that the TSA has regulatory oversight for security access to the flight deck so I'm not certain if it would be TC Aviation Security or CATSA here in Canada that the company would have to talk to. It might even have to include all of the airports as I seem to recall they are the ones that issue the RAIC and maintain their individual databases... That's really all just a guess on my part though.

[Disco Stu]

it seems odd to me that AC would accept an agreement that contains a fee and object to one that includes FA's

Then there is no point continuing this discussion.

[mattedfred]

[Jaques Strappe]

Mattedfred

Don't take this the wrong way because I ask legitimately. Does Jazz have its own jumpseat committee which negotiates jumpseat reciprocal agreements with other airlines or do they just piggy back on what Air Canada negotiates?

[Bajan Pilot]

We have our own JS Committee which negots. independently of AC.

[Jaques Strappe]

We have our own JS Committee which negots. independently of AC.

Thanks Bajan

So is there still an agreement in effect between Jazz and Porter? It was only the Porter- Air Canada agreement that was terminated?

JS

[mattedfred]

that is what i was told by porter last week

[Pourdu_fun]

that is what i was told by porter last week

And I can confirm that also. Jazz agreement with Porter is still ON.

Pourdu

[TopperHarley]

Had a Porter pilot j/s with us to YQT today. Apparently the AC j/s agreement stops this weekend, but it will continue with Jazz. At least that's what I was told.

[Jack Klumpus]

It's odd that they cancel the whole deal because of the f/a's. I've seen the jumpseat list that PD has. There are two boxes, one for flight crew, the other for F/As. Most of the F/A boxes say NO (i.e. other airlines declined the F/A, but accept Flight Crew). Why didn't AC do the same?

Makes me think it was more of a legal battle, otherwise they woulda kept the pilots, and denied the F/As.

[Disco Stu]

It's odd that they cancel the whole deal because of the f/a's. I've seen the jumpseat list that PD has. There are two boxes, one for flight crew, the other for F/As. Most of the F/A boxes say NO (i.e. other airlines declined the F/A, but accept Flight Crew). Why didn't AC do the same?

Makes me think it was more of a legal battle, otherwise they woulda kept the pilots, and denied the F/As.

AC never allowed FAs. Porter does. That is the problem.

The law suit may very well be an additional factor, but the manager I spoke to said the FA issue was the sticking point.

[mattedfred]

so AC doesn't like getting in line behind an FA but they don't mind paying WJ for the JS?

[Jack Klumpus]

It's odd that they cancel the whole deal because of the f/a's. I've seen the jumpseat list that PD has. There are two boxes, one for flight crew, the other for F/As. Most of the F/A boxes say NO (i.e. other airlines declined the F/A, but accept Flight Crew). Why didn't AC do the same?

Makes me think it was more of a legal battle, otherwise they woulda kept the pilots, and denied the F/As.

AC never allowed FAs. Porter does. That is the problem.

The law suit may very well be an additional factor, but the manager I spoke to said the FA issue was the sticking point.

Let me simplify it even more.

When PD approached the airlines for recip j/s, they brought up the idea (good or bad, that's a different topic), about adding F/A's. Most airlines said no thanks, only pilots. This was not a combo deal or nothing. With most airlines, JAZZ included, the deal was only for pilots.

When the deal with AC was made, it was for pilots only. AC said no to the F/A jumpseating, but said yes to pilots only.

Within 30 days, the deal was kiboshed.

[BLZD1]

It may also allow AC CUPE to try to get some sort of recip J/S aggreement for themselfs. I pretty sure AC does not want that!

[Disco Stu]

so AC doesn't like getting in line behind an FA but they don't mind paying WJ for the JS?

Why is this so difficult for you to understand. I have told you this 4 times now!

[Localizer]

Why is this so difficult for you to understand. I have told you this 4 times now!

Now now Stu ... your letting your PAG ways shine thru again. (suppress those urges!)


Paying for the JS is bullsh*t ... and to me WJ gets to enjoy the JS program while the rest of us get a quazy Zedfare program in return.

Cheers.

[fingersmac]

Recip J/S have to pay taxes/fees with AC and Jazz starting in May. Just got a memo about the new procedures today. Wonder if you still need that coupon from crew?

[bcflyer]

Any truth to the fact that the only way to book the Recip JS with Porter is to call the booking line between the hours of 1000 and 1600 EST? Thats pretty restrictive..