Jazz (Thomas Cook)

[teacher]

ACPA wouldn't be bitching or going to "labour relations" if Flair, Enerjet, Transat, Sunwing or even *gasp* AC were doing the flying.

It's always been a pilot vs pilot thing since WAY BACK in the CALPA ALPA ACPA days. The fact that there are provisions in the ACPA CA that pertain to Jazz flying says it all, protecting "your" flying? How about protecting our jobs?

I have never had anything against AC or ACPA or anyone but that fact that this is already turning into a scrap has me shaking my head and not surprised.

[fivemoreminutes]

My god... It because it's robbing the AC Vacation product!! Wake up!! I'd be super pissed as well.. Leave the CPA and invent something new or take your punishment like the pro's you are.

[truedude]

My god... It because it's robbing the AC Vacation product!! Wake up!! I'd be super pissed as well.. Leave the CPA and invent something new or take your punishment like the pro's you are.

How is this flying robbing AC of anything. Its flying that was going to get done by someone, somewhere, so who gives a shit who does it. Well I guess we already know who, but I would venture a guess thats its a small minority that actually care.

As for a 57 not being a dash or RJ. I am not sure what your trying to imply, but its still an airplane, I am sure our guys will muddle through it somehow. And of course we will need to bring in contract guys to help set it up, thats a given, and even stated in the press release.

[PC12flyer]

I work at Jazz, I agree that this is going to keep the over capacity in the vacation market going. However if not us, then someone else would have stepped in. The problem I am having, like Brick Head, is that suddenly this has gotten personal between two pilot groups. Air Canada and Jazz are born from the same family. We, the little brother, have left the nest never to return. We are finally learning ways to fly on our own and suddenly big brother has a problem with this. It seems to me that as long as Jazz guys are only flying turbo props and 50 seat jets our big brother will happily stay out of our business. However that is arrogant thinking since you no longer have control over our business. You let us leave home, infact you kicked us out to save yourselves and make Mr. Milton a really rich man, that is who is the real enemy managment. And until we come to the understanding that this isn't about two different pilot groups and focus our combined energy on management to improve our respective lifestyles, we'll never stop fighting.

I agree this situation will have an effect on the industry as a whole. I also see the implications of this from an Air Canada pilots stand point. If Jazz gets its new contract with lower than standard wages for the 757, this could potentially entice Calin to spin off ACV and then they can chose whom ever they want to fly the planes, not necessarily AC anymore. It could be seen as a scope buster. That's the real worst case scenario though. In reality, ACPA is a very strong union, with very capable people who will work hard to protect Air Canada flying and they should fight as hard as they can. I just don't think they can control what another company does. The precedent in this alone would be unimaginable. If ACPA were to succeed in scoping Jazz, an entirely seperate company, out of a entirely seperate commercial agreement involving 757's, what is stopping them from scoping anyone in the industry out of their heavy metal. That is why I believe their attempts to block this deal, if they do go ahead with it, will be unscuccesful.

However to resort to name calling and telling Jazz pilots to "roll over and take it like the pro's we are" sounds childish and unprofessional. It also shows the childish behaviour that exists within our pilot profession. Until we stop pissing on tires to mark our territory and focus on improving our lot together we'll just continue the never ending race to the bottom and Joe and Calin will smoke the most expensive cigars and pat eachother on the back as they destroy our beloved career and pocket million dollar bonuses.

End Rant!

[TopperHarley]

Im sure that to get things started, it will probably be outside hires (under a contract). Perhaps TC pilots will do it initially until Jazz pilots are all trained and ready, or perhaps some ex-SSV pilots will be hired to help get the ball rolling. The same kind of thing happened when Jazz got the RJ's I believe. No big deal and really surprise.

As someone else alluded to above, people are always trying to remind us that Jazz is a separate company from AC. They say Jazz should pay for its own gas, that they should not be given C1 or C2 travel passes, that we should have our own uniforms, that we should not have access to the same employee travel benefits, that we should not be allowed to transfer any seniority if hired, that we should not be give any sort of preferential hiring, that we should still be seat-locked at Jazz for 2 years before given an opportunity to interview at mainline, etc etc. I'm not particularly opposed to this stuff, but it begs the questions- if we are so separate, why should it be such a big deal that Jazz signed this contract? People say we are as separate from AC as is WJ or SW. So if that's true and if you believe it, then it shouldn't be such a controversial issue.

[Localizer]

How is this over capacity in the market??? .. Thomas Cook has been operating a tour company here for awhile .. and successfully .. Sky Service was the only struggling point. Not Thomas Cook.

Jazz will get no "punishment" from Air Canada .. the CPA is quite clear in regards to Charter flying .. and its not a Jazz tour company, its a Thomas Cook tour company.

This is Jazz, not Air Canada .. we can train guys in a resonable amount of time. It doesn't take 7 months to get a pilot online here, and just like the rest of the 57, 67, 77 drivers out there, our pilots will be just fine. (but thanks for the well wishes! *sarcasm*) Besides .. I think the Dash in the rocks on a circling approach, at night, in the snow is a little tougher than the 10 mile vectored ils.

Jazz can become a lot more .. and this is the first step ...

[habs]

" My god... It because it's robbing the AC Vacation product!! Wake up!! I'd be super pissed as well.. Leave the CPA and invent something new or take your punishment like the pro's you are. "

Like someone else mentioned TC has been doing this for a while in Canada and doing it well. There is no robbery of anything. Their market share exists already.

We'll keep the CPA AND invent something new, how about that.

And bullshit to this lowering the bar stuff; status pay is the way to go and is an implementation of progressive thinking. It is simply an averaged or median pay system that favours quality of life and is proven to reduce training costs for airlines with multiple types. You can't look at what a 757 pilot gets in a status pay system without looking at what the -8 pilot gets; they are linked. Now if you only operate 1 type, then it's a different story. Like a famous AC guy on here says: apples and oranges (although I dont think he's been on here for a while).

[bcflyer]

As someone else alluded to above, people are always trying to remind us that Jazz is a separate company from AC. They say Jazz should pay for its own gas, that they should not be given C1 or C2 travel passes, that we should have our own uniforms, that we should not have access to the same employee travel benefits, that we should not be allowed to transfer any seniority if hired, that we should not be give any sort of preferential hiring, that we should still be seat-locked at Jazz for 2 years before given an opportunity to interview at mainline, etc etc. I'm not particularly opposed to this stuff, but it begs the questions- if we are so separate, why should it be such a big deal that Jazz signed this contract? People say we are as separate from AC as is WJ or SW. So if that's true and if you believe it, then it shouldn't be such a controversial issue.

Topper you just answered your own question.. As much as some people say it, Jazz isn't a separate company in the true sense of the word. Last time I looked, WJ and SW WERE paying for their own gas, DIDN'T have C-1 or C-2 passes, HAVE their own uniforms, DON"T have access to AC travel benefits, DON"T have any kind of preferential hiring and certainly CAN'T transfer any seniority to mainline. IF this was actually the case at Jazz, then maybe this wouldn't be such a big deal.. As it is Jazz employees have all the above benefits of being connected to AC yet still want to compete against their biggest customer as if there was no connection at all.... Sounds like mainline isn't the only ones wanting to have their cake and eat it too....

[Localizer]

Topper you just answered your own question.. As much as some people say it, Jazz isn't a separate company in the true sense of the word. Last time I looked, WJ and SW WERE paying for their own gas, DIDN'T have C-1 or C-2 passes, HAVE their own uniforms, DON"T have access to AC travel benefits, DON"T have any kind of preferential hiring and certainly CAN'T transfer any seniority to mainline. IF this was actually the case at Jazz, then maybe this wouldn't be such a big deal.. As it is Jazz employees have all the above benefits of being connected to AC yet still want to compete against their biggest customer as if there was no connection at all.... Sounds like mainline isn't the only ones wanting to have their cake and eat it too....

BCFlyer,

Jazz is not competing against Air Canada ... Thomas Cook is competing with Air Canada Vacations. We are just filling a contract for uplift .. not operating a tour company. Thomas Cook is the competitor .. I feel that point needs to be pressed.

As for fuel, uniforms .. thats all part the CPA my friend. Preferential hiring? You drafted an LOU, thats it .. as for the preferential part .. some would beg to differ. The passes and travel benefits are the only thing that you can call a benefit, we're thankful for them, and as far as we're concerned well earned.

A harsh reality from the pilot side of AC .. we're separate when you need us to be separate, and we're not when you need us not to be ...

[TopperHarley]

bcflyer,

I don't disagree with you. I was just trying to prove a point more or less. When Jazz employees try to fight for benefits from AC (i.e. travel, hiring, etc), people tell us that we are "separate" and therefore deserve no special benefits or treatment. But when Jazz tries to secure a contract outside the CPA, people tell us we are not that separate from AC and have no right to do it.

[fivemoreminutes]

I'm pretty sure you jazz guys can say goodbye to your passes. But hey.. Maybe and just maybe two or three of your managers might fly the plane in the first year.. just a guess. Mind you who cares you are a seperate airline and can ride the 57 if there is any room..

[truedude]

I'm pretty sure you jazz guys can say goodbye to your passes. But hey.. Maybe and just maybe two or three of your managers might fly the plane in the first year.. just a guess. Mind you who cares you are a seperate airline and can ride the 57 if there is any room..

EDITED It's clear you have little understanding how either of the two company's operate. Get a hobby.

[habs]

"I'm pretty sure you jazz guys can say goodbye to your passes. But hey.. Maybe and just maybe two or three of your managers might fly the plane in the first year.. just a guess. Mind you who cares you are a seperate airline and can ride the 57 if there is any room.. "

[TopperHarley]

I'm pretty sure you jazz guys can say goodbye to your passes. But hey.. Maybe and just maybe two or three of your managers might fly the plane in the first year.. just a guess. Mind you who cares you are a seperate airline and can ride the 57 if there is any room..

If this is in fact contrary to the terms of the CPA, then I'm sure managers from both sides are licking their lips right now. They are the ones who negotiated the CPA and the TC contract, and yet, any ensuing animosity is all directed between the pilot groups. Instead of us putting pressure on management to fix the problems, we instead fight wars against each other. With contract negotiations underway, I am indeed convinced they are all licking their lips right now. And I find this all very sad that we decide to resort to these kind of battles.

[Gurundu the Rat]

Jazz is not competing against Air Canada ... Thomas Cook is competing with Air Canada Vacations. We are just filling a contract for uplift .. not operating a tour company. Thomas Cook is the competitor .. I feel that point needs to be pressed.

Yes, it's Thomas Cook's flying. Problem with AC is Jazz was the lowest bidder and got the flying. Had Jazz not bid on the flying the contract would have gone to the next lowest bidder and TC's costs would have gone up. Do you see how this affects ACV? As a result of Jazz being the lowest bidder AC's costs go up to compete with Thomas Cook. I think that is the issue AC may have with Jazz.

[hypoxic]

I agree! Jazz was able to undercut everyone else because of the sweet CPA deal they have with AC. Jazz is essentially using AC money to subsidize the TC deal, thus lowering TC's cost for charter work. A bit of a conflict of interest if you ask me.

Yes, it's Thomas Cook's flying. Problem with AC is Jazz was the lowest bidder and got the flying. Had Jazz not bid on the flying the contract would have gone to the next lowest bidder and TC's costs would have gone up. Do you see how this affects ACV? As a result of Jazz being the lowest bidder AC's costs go up to compete with Thomas Cook. I think that is the issue AC may have with Jazz.

[truedude]

[quote="hypoxic"]I agree! Jazz was able to undercut everyone else because of the sweet CPA deal they have with AC. Jazz is essentially using AC money to subsidize the TC deal, thus lowering TC's cost for charter work. A bit of a conflict of interest if you ask me.

So if I follow your logic, your saying that Jazz is going to do this flying at a loss, because of the CPA? Give your head a shake buddy. There is no way Jazz was the lowest bidder on this contract. You should see how much Canjet undercut us to do the Transat work. Believe it or not, Jazz does not have some big hard on to do other work outside the CPA if it means taking a loss doing it. Unlike Air Canada, they are in the business of making money.

[fivemoreminutes]

It's kinda funny how you jazz guys think your going to hold on to these planes that are owned by Thomas Cook. Do you really think they will just leave them behind after winter for you guys to use. Really guys!! Jazz is going to be a managment company for Thomas Cook. And maybe at best a crewing company. These planes WILL go back after the season with thier pilots. Sorry but that's how I see it.

[fivemoreminutes]

Truedude... Your right on the ball with that one. No one can outbid Canjet. And this did not go out to tender. Jazz if anything will be the most expensive in the industry.. Hands down!

[habs]

Sure TC wants a good deal. A good deal involves a lot more than just the final price. They want the best possible product at the best possible price. Kinda like AC with the CPA and Jazz . That doesn't necessarily mean the cheapest price. It's about the total package. Jazz (or former regionals) has an attractive, elaborate and dependable infrastructure that dates back well before the CPA days. And how would you or anyone know who bid what or if Jazz undercut everyone else? These are assumptions and you know what happens when you ASSume...

And it's not AC money once Jazz renders a service; it's Jazz money. Freaks !

[Localizer]

Don't give fivemoreminutes another minute .. he's just trying to rope you into a war ..

Jazz bid on a contract .. they were awarded a contract .. Thomas Cook wasn't about to go bankrupt or abandon the Canadian market .. If it wasn't Jazz, it would be someone else. Its all fair and square ... why continue this debate.

Jazz folks .. people here wanna incite a battle .. my advice .. don't give it to them.

[fivemoreminutes]

This is not a contract that went out to tender Localizer. This is an agreement between two parties. Two parties that must agree to terms in 2011 for this to continue if it ever passes regulatory approval.

[teacher]

You'd think ACPA would be more interested in trying to improve their own company instead of going after others.

[RFN]

This is turning into the proof that we are our own worst enemies.
If you work for AC, and you are pissed that Jazz is getting outside work, maybe even flying "real" jets, then dress it up how you like, but you are being selfish.
If you guys make an announcement saying that for example, you are going to be ordering 6 more 787s, and ramping up some long haul flying, I would be genuinely happy for you guys, and the movement that would create across your pilot group.

Kindly repay the favour. Or don't, because it does not matter.

[Jaques Strappe]

All political BS aside. Congrats Jazz, anyone have any idea what the pay rate for 57 will be?