Jazz (Thomas Cook)

[RFN]

We are still in the middle of trying to negotiate a contract, so nobody knows.
I hope its lots, but keeping in mind that if we continue with status pay, it might end up SEEMING like less than it should, because the benefit will be spread across the entire pilot group.

[Stinky]

I think we all need to stop making up arguments and be honest about what this fight is about.

Certain guys are insecure, they felt good flying an E175 and looking down at the lowly inexperienced useless Jazz guys that certainly couldn't fly anything bigger than an RJ.
This ruins that for them and now there going to start feeling really small, and I'm not talking about on the ramp beside a 757.

I would hope that most AC guys that don't have these issues with insecurity are happy for us because all any of us are doing is trying to provide for our families and enjoy life.

[TyrellCorp]

I work at Jazz, I agree that this is going to keep the over capacity in the vacation market going. However if not us, then someone else would have stepped in. The problem I am having, like Brick Head, is that suddenly this has gotten personal between two pilot groups. Air Canada and Jazz are born from the same family. We, the little brother, have left the nest never to return. We are finally learning ways to fly on our own and suddenly big brother has a problem with this. It seems to me that as long as Jazz guys are only flying turbo props and 50 seat jets our big brother will happily stay out of our business. However that is arrogant thinking since you no longer have control over our business. You let us leave home, infact you kicked us out to save yourselves and make Mr. Milton a really rich man, that is who is the real enemy managment. And until we come to the understanding that this isn't about two different pilot groups and focus our combined energy on management to improve our respective lifestyles, we'll never stop fighting.

You see the important issue is that little brother might have left the nest but, big brother is paying little brother's rent at the new property through a very generous CPA. If we were completely separate companies this wouldn't be an issue. Come on guys / gals let's call a spade a spade OK? You can't be funded by one company while providing flying for a competing company. It's the simplest way to see it IMHO.
I also agree that we shouldn't be fighting between the pilot groups.

With respect!
Cheers!!!

[ACAV8R]

Just in,

Air Canada Vacations signs CPA with Voyageur Airways of North Bay, ON to provide feeder service for its vacation destinations utilizing up to 11 Q400s.

I know a bit of a stretch but a few of the Jazz guys on the forums would have no problems with the above announcement based on the arguments in other threads. This would be essentially an end run on your CPA in the long term that would drive wages and conditions further down. Once Voyageur had their foot in the door at lower rates (not just pilots) they would slowly take over what Jazz's network is today.

This is one of a few reasons I'm sure the pilots of Air Canada will explore all legal avenues within the contracts.

[mbav8r]

This is turning into the proof that we are our own worst enemies.
If you work for AC, and you are pissed that Jazz is getting outside work, maybe even flying "real" jets, then dress it up how you like, but you are being selfish.
If you guys make an announcement saying that for example, you are going to be ordering 6 more 787s, and ramping up some long haul flying, I would be genuinely happy for you guys, and the movement that would create across your pilot group.

Kindly repay the favour. Or don't, because it does not matter.

It must be a well kept secret but there is growth coming down the pipe, I won't give away any details. You guys know what I'm talking about, the memo I may be referring to. Anyway, point I'm making is if there was an announcement that AC was adding 10 777's to their fleet. As a Jazz guy I would be extremely happy for you guys and maybe I'm too simplistic but growth for you is good for me.
Why does the CPA always get brought into any conversation to do with AC vs Jazz? I mean come on, should Jazz be set up as a not for profit charity? To provide charitable services to help out a company in distress, would that make you happy. I don't know of any corporation that would not be in business if not for profit. We gave back millions and then we commuters are supporting your managers bonuses with the service charges, we the seperate company on that day. But not for this issue.
Maybe the answer is Jazz should be brought back into the family fold, how about date of hire merging of the list and we all live as one big happy family.....

[hypoxic]

I think from ACPA's perspective this is a violation of their CA with AC, plain and simple. This is AC's problem to fix. Part of AC's CPA is that whatever company is farmed out to do AC's work has to comply with the scope clause in ACPA's contract. Whether it's Jazz, Voyageur or whoever maybe doing some of AC's flying in the future, will have to comply with the CPA. This is not an ACPA vs ALPA(Jazz) issue. Just like it wasn't an ACPA vs Skypac issue when Sky was doing the TC flying. If this is a violation of ACPA's CA then AC will have to deal with Jazz under the provisions of the CPA.

[habs]

"Air Canada Vacations signs CPA with Voyageur Airways of North Bay, ON to provide feeder service for its vacation destinations utilizing up to 11 Q400s"

And This !

"Despite some disappointment, Jazz congratulates Voyageur on its successful bid; will continue to provide at least 125 Covered Aircraft and 8 swing aircraft under its CPA until at 2020, as per the agreement. Furthermore, Thomas Cook and Jazz agree on terms for summer deployments in Europe, making their agreement year-round. Market reaction is positive; Jazz units/shares on the rise."



Freaks !

[mbav8r]

Hypoxic, I don't know the wording of your scope, but the CPA is very clear in it's wording.
(t) "Covered Aircraft" means for any period during the Term, the aircraft whose capacity
Air Canada is purchasing from Jazz, as listed in Schedule "F" for that period, as Schedule
"F" may be amended as provided for in this Agreement;
"Non-Covered Aircraft" means any aircraft operated by Jazz which are not Covered
Aircraft;
Section 4.08 Air Canada Labour Agreements. Jazz shall use its best efforts to ensure the
Covered Aircraft operated by Jazz or a wholly owned subsidiary or other entity controlled by
Jazz conform to Air Canada 's collective agreement with its pilots, as amended from time to time
(the "AC Collective Agreement") particularly as to type of aircraft and number of seats, and
Jazz shall use its best efforts to ensure it does not otherwise cause Air Canada to be in violation
of the AC Collective Agreement. Air Canada confirms and agrees that (a) as of the Effective
Time, the Covered Aircraft as described and configured in Schedule "F" comply with the AC
Collective Agreement, and (b) Air Canada shall not, without using reasonable efforts to obtain
- 22 -Jazz's written consent, agree to an amendment of the AC Collective Agreement that is more
restrictive to the operations of Jazz than is in effect as of the Effective Time.

(b) Jazz Flights. At Jazz's expense, Jazz may operate Jazz Flights using aircraft other than
the Covered Aircraft.
Any questions?

[habs]

mbav8r: Good post.

This has been quoted several times within the 3 different threads about this. And it is self explanatory. No need to be a lawyer for that one. You can lead a horse to water but....FREAKS!

On another note, this might just beat that huge Canjet thread from a couple years back !

[hypoxic]

ACPA's scope clause is quite clear from what I understand. If there isn't a violation of ACPA's CA then great. Does ALPA(Jazz) have any provisions in their CA that precludes Jazz from signing a deal with Geogian to fly the 57? Would ALPA even care?

I think you will still see that AC might have an issue with Jazz signing a deal with a competitor. If Jazz had signed a deal to provide lift for a company that wanted to operate YKF to CPR with a 50 -8's then I don't think AC would care! IMHO

I also find this part of the CPA interesting. "Air Canada shall not, without using reasonable efforts to obtain
- 22 -Jazz's written consent, agree to an amendment of the AC Collective Agreement that is more
restrictive to the operations of Jazz than is in effect as of the Effective Time." If AC violated this part of the CPA would the CPA become void?

Hypoxic, I don't know the wording of your scope, but the CPA is very clear in it's wording.
(t) "Covered Aircraft" means for any period during the Term, the aircraft whose capacity
Air Canada is purchasing from Jazz, as listed in Schedule "F" for that period, as Schedule
"F" may be amended as provided for in this Agreement;
"Non-Covered Aircraft" means any aircraft operated by Jazz which are not Covered
Aircraft;
Section 4.08 Air Canada Labour Agreements. Jazz shall use its best efforts to ensure the
Covered Aircraft operated by Jazz or a wholly owned subsidiary or other entity controlled by
Jazz conform to Air Canada 's collective agreement with its pilots, as amended from time to time
(the "AC Collective Agreement") particularly as to type of aircraft and number of seats, and
Jazz shall use its best efforts to ensure it does not otherwise cause Air Canada to be in violation
of the AC Collective Agreement. Air Canada confirms and agrees that (a) as of the Effective
Time, the Covered Aircraft as described and configured in Schedule "F" comply with the AC
Collective Agreement, and (b) Air Canada shall not, without using reasonable efforts to obtain
- 22 -Jazz's written consent, agree to an amendment of the AC Collective Agreement that is more
restrictive to the operations of Jazz than is in effect as of the Effective Time.

(b) Jazz Flights. At Jazz's expense, Jazz may operate Jazz Flights using aircraft other than
the Covered Aircraft.
Any questions?

[RFN]

If we tried to operate cargo or charters from YKF - CPR, then ACPA could say that we are cutting into their YYZ hub because those pax (or mail or whatever) would be able to fly directly to YKF.
Then you could yell that we are cutting into your YYZ-DEN flights because pax could skip the DEN-CPR part of their trips. You could therefore argue that ANY flying ANYWHERE in the world is in indirect competition with AC.

This is NOT ACPA's flying. It is fair game, just like YKF-CPR, and once again, please stop trying to apply your scope clause (otherwise known as the "RFN can't afford to fix his roof clause") to another separate company operating a separate contract.

On another note, congrats on the 767s to YYZ-LAX (read it off the TSX this AM). Extra flying for you guys is good for everyone.

[Dark Helmet]

Brickhead,

Thanks for the reply, and I get where you are coming from. I hope that there will be no anymosity between AC and Jazz (the companies) but I just gotta say.

First, I am surprised to hear that this came as a surprise to AC and ACPA. Again, we are a separate company and have been for what 2 years now.

There have been numerous memos that came since that time from JR and ALPA stating how important it is to diversify the revenue base at Jazz and find work outside of the CPA. Off course the company was not doing a great job at it initially so our MEC stepped outside of their boundaries and helped the company secure more work.

Despite what most people think. Our MEC and...... (wincing while I say my next words ) Jazz management are not complete fools. They have been working at this for some time. No doubt they consulted with Lawyers, Advisors, etc about what type of work they can or can't do. Case and point, this TC contract did not happen overnight.

They are not doing this to F#$% AC or ACPA over. Quite the opposite, Jazz takes its relationship quite seriously and will contunue to provide AC with the best possible service it can provide. However, the concern at Jazz is that having 99% of our revenue coming from one source is not good business. period Especially IF (again I said if not when, if) AC runs into financial troubles again. Respectfully if that happens, we do not want to go down with AC.

Jazz is smply trying to make a name for itself and stand on its own feet. That it That all.

Now what bothers me is the fact that AC was surprised by this. It really shows how seriously AC takes Jazz and how little respect AC has for Jazz.

To everyone else. AC has a CPA agreement with Jazz to provide X number of aircraft and X number of block hours. Outside that if AC wants to open an agreement with another carrier they are free to do so. If they do it should be because Jazz is is not providng the services AC is paying for,not because Jazz is trying to grow beyiond the CPA. IMHO

I am really getting sick of all the comments on this forum. This really shows how FU$%@D up ACPA is and bitter they are towards Jazz. I don't have any issues with AC pilots but you guys are not winning any respect over this

Oh BTW. Don't you have more important internal issues to sort out?

Like 60 vs 65
OAC vs OCP
Or better yet, getting ready for contract negots next spring

I heard that you may have some expansion of your own. Like some new widebodies. I wish you the best of luck with that venture and hope it pans out.

Cheers


DH

[mbav8r]

- 22 -Jazz's written consent, agree to an amendment of the AC Collective Agreement that is more
restrictive to the operations of Jazz than is in effect as of the Effective Time." If AC violated this part of the CPA would the CPA become void?
Again I'm not a lawyer, but In my opinion that is simply a clause that says if ACPA were to negotiate a more restrictive scope in their CA and AC agreed to it. Quite simply Jazz would not have to abide by it and you could sue your employer. Which seems to be a favorite pass time for some of your group

[BLZD1]

ACPA guys are upset because the CPA is very expensive-!! It helps make AC uncompetitive with WestJet. The CPA with Jazz is being used to take money out of the mainline to give to the shareholders making AC weak. (legal theft) Now this excessive CPA will now go towards another company to help them compete against AC. I am pretty sure this was not the intent of the CPA. If you want to secure work outside of the CPA you must be paid a reasonable CPA rate.

[Dark Helmet]

Sigh,

Okay.......

ACPA guys are upset because the CPA is very expensive-!! It helps make AC uncompetitive with WestJet.

Not that crap again, the CPA was re-negotiated last summer. Jazz lost 8 aircrafts and took a 40 million hit in annual revenue.

The CPA with Jazz is being used to take money out of the mainline to give to the shareholders making AC weak.

No arguments there, Reason why the Jazz pilots are underpaid as well. Believe me, we are on your side on that one. Remenber, this was ACE doing. No pilot at jazz asked for this.

Now this excessive CPA will now go towards another company to help them compete against AC

Again, CPA was re-negotiated. It is higher compared to the States, more on that later...

I don't get your argument. Jazz signed an agreement with Thomas Cook. Thomas Cook is paying Jazz to fly these airplanes. Thomas Cook is providing Jazz with the airplanes. Jazz will (or at least it is my assumption) look after the fuel, crews, ground handling, etc. The revenue from the CPA has nothing to do with the TC contract. I do not see how the CPA money will help Jazz "compete" with AC. 2 separate contracts. This will help Jazz earn more revenue for the (gulp) Shareholders and hopefully its Labour force. Jazz is not buying these aircraft with the CPA money to compete with AC.

I am pretty sure this was not the intent of the CPA. If you want to secure work outside of the CPA you must be paid a reasonsonable CPA rate.

So what are you suggesting? Reduce the CPA rate or give the CPA to another (cheaper) provider? What do you think that will do to the whole piloting profession?

You are accusing us for flying 757 for cheap and "destroying you profession" , "taking your work" and all. But you would have no problems if AC reduced our CPA and gave that flying to the lowest bidder.

A bit of hyprocracy here don't you think? Again this is getting wwwwaaay too stupid. I hate to say this, I am dissapointed but not surprised to hear this kind of reaction from you guys on this.

DH

[BLZD1]

So what are you suggesting? Reduce the CPA rate or give the CPA to another (cheaper) provider? What do you think that will do to the whole piloting profession?

Yes reduce the CPA rate so both companies can benefit from a stronger AC/Jazz. The shareholders are stealing from both companies. Jazz is an excellent regional carrier and I do not want to see the work go to another company. Jazz needs to keep the pay rates up as does AC.

You are accusing us for flying 757 for cheap and "destroying you profession" , "taking your work" and all. But you would have no problems if AC reduced our CPA and gave that flying to the lowest bidder.

No, I see some merit in status pay system. I wish we could get the shareholders hands out of our pockets so we could acquire some equity for both companies.

A bit of hyprocracy here don't you think? Again this is getting wwwwaaay too stupid. I hate to say this, I am disappointed but not surprised to hear this kind of reaction from you guys on this.

Sorry dude just stating an opinion that all. A strong Air Canada is good for both our families.

ACPA and ALPA need to get together and fight all this shareholder theft that is happening to both companies. This will make us both more competitive with the rest of the industry.

But I do have some questions,

1. Is Jazz going to be deadheading 757 crews around for free on AC/Jazz planes? AC pays for all seats on both planes.

2. Are you going to be wearing the Air Canada uniform and logo?

3. Are 757 crews still going to have the same pass travel and benefits as they do with Jazz even though they do not do work for AC?

4. If the 757 has incident, is AC's name going to be used in the press?

I realize it a bit soon to have the answers to these questions. I do feel we as in ACPA did our part last year in concessions (Pension) in helping out both our companies. ACPA does not want that excess CPA money used to compete against AC hence hurting our group. I find it hard to believe that AC will not be paying for some of the expenses for Jazz operating 757s (i.e. deadheading and other benefits) Both companies are great at creative accounting

[proper]

OMG it's unreal how much energy goes in to speculation. Unreal. We at Jazz are only getting info by the trikle.

NO DH, A/C based in YYZ for the now. A lot of Single day duty periods..weekends mostly.

NO AC UNIFORM, there are plans of us getting our own.

JAZZ Pilots= Passes on AC and JZA

Last time I checked WE ARE JAZZ NOT AC! If the reporter is an idiot (as they usually are) maybe??? We get mixed in with AC news all the time.

You said it...too soon to ask.

Wait 6 months, take a breath and then everyone can ask and get facts.

[BLZD1]

Proper and DH,

Just asking questions guys, no offense meant. See ya in the skys!!

BLZD

[proper]

That's ok, speculation rules us all. Anyway only time will tell. We all want what's best for everyone. I never want to see paycuts, layoffs or companies close. Christ there's enough blue sky for everyone.

Safe flying

as facts flow so shall the posts.

[Dark Helmet]

Sorry dude just stating an opinion that all. A strong Air Canada is good for both our families.

Partially true, not with the "us vs them" attitude.

ACPA and ALPA need to get together and fight all this shareholder theft that is happening to both companies. This will make us both more competitive with the rest of the industry.

100%, In fact we did it before, many times. However we let the our egos get the better of us. Unfortunetly in todays capitalist world. Shareholders comes first, then executives, then......................and finally..................................................and then the employees. I agree, that has to change, it wont as long as we are pissing on each others backyard and I doubt that will change anytime soon.

But I do have some questions,

Note: All answers are pure speculation on my part. I really have no clue but here it goes.

1. Is Jazz going to be deadheading 757 crews around for free on AC/Jazz planes? AC pays for all seats on both planes.

I have seen Transat crews deadheading on AC, Sunwing on Jazz flights, etc. I am sure Jazz will go to the lowest bidder for Deadheading crews Having said that, Jazz has 5 bases. With most flights being turns, Deadheading will be minimum

2. Are you going to be wearing the Air Canada uniform and logo?

Well The flying will be done on behalf of Thomas Cook. I am guessing that TC will want to advertise their own brand and not ACs. Short answer I am guessing no. .

3. Are 757 crews still going to have the same pass travel and benefits as they do with Jazz even though they do not do work for AC?

They will be Jazz employees therefore they will have the same benefits as any current Jazz employees have. Of course you are refering to the travel pass benefits. Well that will probably change regardless of this agreement being signed. I am sure AC management will use that as a bargaining chip on your negots next year. Just stating the obvious man

4. If the 757 has incident, is AC's name going to be used in the press?

Heaven forbid man!!!!! However should it happen. It is going to be a TC airplane with a TC paintjob. Common sense would dictate that TC would be in the headlines. Having said that, the media does not always excercise common sense.

I realize it a bit soon to have the answers to these questions. I do feel we as in ACPA did our part last year in concessions (Pension) in helping out both our companies. ACPA does not want that excess CPA money used to compete against AC hence hurting our g roup. I find it hard to believe that AC will not be paying for some of the expenses for Jazz operating 757s (i.e. deadheading and other benefits) Both companies are great at creative accounting[/quote]

Again I agree 100%. However, this finger pointing is what is going to kill us in the end. You blames us for this "overpriced CPA that ALPA did not negotiate for as the reason why you are losing money. We blame you for the reason why we have a concessionary contract is because of AC inability to make money. Managers win, We lose.

[flyinhigh]

Proper and DH,

Just asking questions guys, no offense meant. See ya in the skys!!

BLZD

Sounds good see ya there, Nice to see someone is cool about this.

Guys time to take a break, No body here knows for sure what is going to happen. I mean this is aviation and all, things could change tomorrow, Our MEC may do such a good job on getting us a great contract that we may not be a viable option for this contract anymore. Things change, take a breath.

[crankedup]

EDITED

[flyinhigh]

EDITED

[one8tee]

Just wanted to throw in a quick comment.. the two pilot groups are almost identical- both professional and the best in the world at their jobs. Take us out of this stupid discussion, give us a few pints and lets go chase the flight attendants (the new cute female ones anyway)

I commuted for six months, and many a times ended up in the j/s of the embraer or 320 (which was always graciously offered by the flight crew), chatted with well over 20 different crews. Every once in a while end up deadheading, shooting the sh?t or otherwise hanging out with a mainline crew. I have had coffee bought for me by mainline guys, shared a cab with mainline guys and gone out on layovers on several occassions with mainline guys. always had a great time.. We are all the same.

We each work for companies that refuse to respect us for the professionals were are and think they can simply play us against each other.

So how about this.. instead of jumping on each other about who is going to get what types of passes, fly what type of aircraft, who works for which company that makes more money than this other company.. who works for the company that pays the other companies bill, why not realize were all pilots, all work in the "air canada system" and come together to finally prove to management we deserve real compensation for the job we do every day.

Good luck to both of our groups to finally getting the contracts we deserve. And please remember we as pilots have nothing to do with the decisions our mgmt groups make.. we just drive 'em.

[Flaps 1]

In my opinion, I think ACPA should spend less energy and money on this Jazz thing, and start worrying about Westjet. I mean for god`s sake, it`s 6 measly airplanes! Shouldn`t you be more worried about the 90 or so airplanes that Westjet now has and the possible next 40 on order. I think that is the real threat you should be losing sleep over, not Jazz doing seasonal flying that isn`t even new market saturation.