Jazz & Thomas Cook = 6 757's

[SaskStyle]

Has anyone given any thought to the 150 SkyService pilots who are out of work because your company took over the flying?
quote]


Buddy take a walk, Sky Service was doomed from last year when signature went into talks with Sunwing. THOMAS COOK, again THOMAS COOK NOT JAZZ AIR put sky service out of its misery.

Get over it, this didn't happen because we walked up and said, hey we want your flying, we'll do it cheaper. No they knew we were looking, came to us to see if we could do the contract and together our MEC, Management, etc came to an agreement.

I do feel for these guys, I really do. But I'll let you in on a secret. If we aren't doing it, Enerjet, Canjet, Transat, AC Vacations, Flair, just to name a few would have stepped in. (Oh but wait Jazz is working on a 10 year old contract that was forced on them so there scabs) a heart beat for these passengers. We were just proactive enough to get it first.

Said it before, Sask. Have a few pints on me, I wish you well and do hope you find work soon. Cheers

I am not a SkyService pilot. And I definately would not accept a pint from you based on your arrogant self serving attitude.

[mbav8r]

Sask, Now I'm beating my head against a brick f'n wall. You need some anti-depressents or some therapy. My wife once told me I had to stop reading the newspaper because my mood changed too drastically with all the depressing news out there. Lets face it, most printed news is bad. But for crying out loud, they're not fucking dead. Get over it and move on. You are sucking some of the joy out of this, it's not a funeral. Worst case some file for personal bankruptcy, maybe a divorce. Been there done that. I feel bad for you, because you clearly care too much and even though empathy is a great human trait, in this case you need to focus your energy on something productive. Trying to bring us down is not going to solve anything.

//Personal attack removed by Sulako. Read the forum rules, especially the part about "no personal attacks". Next time is a strike.

[SaskStyle]

Sask, Now I'm beating my head against a brick f'n wall. You need some anti-depressents or some therapy. My wife once told me I had to stop reading the newspaper because my mood changed too drastically with all the depressing news out there. Lets face it, most printed news is bad. But for crying out loud, they're not fucking dead. Get over it and move on. You are sucking some of the joy out of this, it's not a funeral. Worst case some file for personal bankruptcy, maybe a divorce. Been there done that. I feel bad for you, because you clearly care too much and even though empathy is a great human trait, in this case you need to focus your energy on something productive. Trying to bring us down is not going to solve anything. I will keep celebrating and you sir can @#$! OFF!

wow.

I still don't see the joy in this.

All I see is one company replacing the flying of another.

All I'm saying is offer to hire those that your MEC worked so hard to put out of work.

Look beyond yourself. Think of what legacy you're leaving...the example you're setting.

You have said over and over that the reason you chose Jazz was for security. Not for the iron.

Why do you care so much about the 757?

[mbav8r]

Ok, This is the last time I will respond to your post. Our MEC DID NOT put any body out of work. Their(SS) managment did that for them. It's NOT about the metal, I won't see it. It's about growth at the company I CHOSE to work for. Read, I did not apply at sun wing when Jazz pilots were going direct entry captain, I did not apply at SS. I'm here and new, bigger planes will translate into bigger paychecks for me.
You seem hell bent on bringing us down, and I have to admit I'm very curious where you work. Wondering what your company is doing for these out of work pilots.
You should also know that without this work, there was a possibility that Jazz would have a surplus of pilots this coming winter, read, possible layoffs.
So I'm done with you and will ignore you while I celebrate all the way to the bank!!!!

[rudder]

SSV lost more jobs related to the TUI side of their operation when they folded than the TCCI piece. Wonder if the company that inherits all of the TUI work will be offering direct entry Captaincies to the SSV pilots? Probably not. I suspect that the Jazz pilot leadership will do the best that they can in asking the employer to offer positions at Jazz to SSV pilots that are consistent with the existing seniority system or the start up provisions for new equipment.

[flyinhigh]

mbav8r,

No worries man, don't worry about it. If he is not a sky pilot (I firmly believe he is, other wise whats with the you stole my flying attitude.) than until his company hires people direct entry he has no leg to stant on. AH Well.

Tell ya what I'll bring the Beer, Party Hats, and the 57 wall murale and we WILL party like its 1999.

[dash2/3]

Mbav8r, is this steve? PM me.

[countryhick]

Sask, its getting old.

SSV pilots are welcome to apply for the short term contract positions that will be likely to appear, or if they would like a permanent position, I am sure their resume and their experience would be welcomed. However, they will not be accepted into a permanent position with the same status they enjoyed at SSV. Not the way it works in a seniority driven operation, you may not like it, but thats the way it is. Perhaps you would be willing to enlighten us with what you or your company are prepared to do for them?

[SaskStyle]

mbav8r,

No worries man, don't worry about it. If he is not a sky pilot (I firmly believe he is, other wise whats with the you stole my flying attitude.) than until his company hires people direct entry he has no leg to stant on. AH Well.

Tell ya what I'll bring the Beer, Party Hats, and the 57 wall murale and we WILL party like its 1999.

Spoken like a true pilot. I couldn't have illustrated my frusteration with my fellow aviators better than you just did yourself.

Sask, its getting old.

SSV pilots are welcome to apply for the short term contract positions that will be likely to appear, or if they would like a permanent position, I am sure their resume and their experience would be welcomed. However, they will not be accepted into a permanent position with the same status they enjoyed at SSV. Not the way it works in a seniority driven operation, you may not like it, but thats the way it is. Perhaps you would be willing to enlighten us with what you or your company are prepared to do for them?

Again, I don't know what to say. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. You illustrate what I feel is wrong in aviation. I could have a beer with you tonight, and you would stab me in the back tomorrow -whether you actually plunge the knife in or simply stand by and cheer when it happens is one and the same, in my view.

I feel that the position you are advocating is shortsighted, and given the circumstances very arrogant.

What is old to me is that we as a pilot group we continue to offer our services for "bigger and better" for less and less.

The current model is broken. I see this instance particularly disturbing given Jazz was a very respected airline.

I understand the excitement with getting new planes and the anticipation of rosy futures. But you have to see it for what it is.

SkyService's operation was not profitable.
Jazz offered their services promising profitablity.
Jazz's MEC (and by representation, Jazz pilots) support the move to operate for Thomas Cook.
Thomas Cook petitions SkyService into bankruptcy.
Jazz announces their expansion, essentially replacing the jobs that the SkyService pilots held.

Please enlighten me on how these sequence of events is a positive move in Canadian Aviation.

[rudder]

SkyService's operation was not profitable.
Jazz offered their services promising profitablity.
Jazz's MEC (and by representation, Jazz pilots) support the move to operate for Thomas Cook.
Thomas Cook petitions SkyService into bankruptcy.
Jazz announces their expansion, essentially replacing the jobs that the SkyService pilots held.

That is a gross oversimplification of actual events and apparently completely ignores the balance sheet crisis at SSV. Oh, and did I forget to mention the TUI situation?

[countryhick]

SkyService's operation was not profitable.

So why was it not profitable, pilot wages, lack of management foresight, aircraft lease costs. I certainly don't know, maybe you do.

Jazz's MEC (and by representation, Jazz pilots) support the move to operate for Thomas Cook.

I absolutely support Jazz's MEC, as I know they are looking out for the entire pilot groups best interest. What remains to be seen is the actual contract language that will allow this to happen. Our MEC will bring us nothing less than an industry leading contract. If the 757 operation fits into that then great, if not, too bad. I for one am not willing to give up anything to have an additional 6 of anything added to the fleet.

Once again, SSV was in trouble well over a year ago. Yes it sad to see so many people out of work, but to continuously suggest this is somehow Jazz's fault is ludicrous. Ever think that the management at Thomas Cook did not like what they saw occurring at SSV, and felt a need to cut their ties, to protect their interests. Perhaps you would be happier if the flying and the spin off jobs were to simply disappear.

You suggest the model is broken, perhaps you are right. Until the time comes when every Professional pilot in this country can agree to what you are suggesting, it simply will not work. Until you can get every operator in this country to agree, it simply will not work. Until that time, this is the way it works, like it or not, it is the reality.

The ink is barely dry on this agreement. There are only a select few that know the actual details, and they're not talking, yet. Until then, perhaps it would be wise to stop the conjecture and finger pointing.

Again, what are you and your company prepared to do for the employees of SSV?

[fivemoreminutes]

thats an easy one... use you on a contract basis until they have no more use for you.. then dump you like a sack of hammers and offer you a top paying 37g's a year bottom of the list. makes me sick!

[mattedfred]

my thoughts go out to my fellow aviators and former SSV pilots. i hope they are able to provide for themselves and their families. i will do what i can by asking my MEC to be aware that these pilots should be given opportunities to train JAZ pilots on the 57 and preferential hiring above other applicants.

perhaps some of you could suggest an appropriate amount of time that TC should have waited before they searched for another airline to provide them with lift after they decided that SSV was not sustainable?

should any potential airline have told TC to take this winter off out of respect for former SSV employees?

would such an act have provided share holder value to those invested in TC?

some say: "why would anyone want to go to JAZ?", when they felt that we had nothing to offer. now some say: "JAZ should allow former SSV pilots to operate the 57." since JAZ now has something to offer.

i would never expect another airline to offer me a DEC position if a seniority based system existed at that airline. i decide whom i want to fly for, with the information i have at that time, then hope for the best.

why would a pilot group that was able to work with management to ensure the success of its airline absorb the pilot group of another airline that was managed poorly.

if this had been a merger then ALPA members would insist on DOH and the SSV pilots would be welcomed onto our seniority list. sadly SSV management let their pilots down and they are stuck applying for a job at JAZ if they so desire.

this is a sad day for SSV but it is a good day for any employee group that is able to continue this flying

[ChallengerDan]

I still don't see the joy in this

Ask people who were doing their little thing, got merged, went through CCAA, were imposed working conditions, taking conditions cut... how they feel about their company expanding. Ask them pilots about a company that is still negotiating CA with them, but still gets the news out, that this is a sad day.


Life is not fair. Right. but nothing is.

I do hope all people afected by the demise of Skyservice make it through. It is not your failure; it is the Corporation that failed.

[Redwine]

my thoughts go out to my fellow aviators and former SSV pilots. i hope they are able to provide for themselves and their families. i will do what i can by asking my MEC to be aware that these pilots should be given opportunities to train JAZ pilots on the 57 and preferential hiring above other applicants.

perhaps some of you could suggest an appropriate amount of time that TC should have waited before they searched for another airline to provide them with lift after they decided that SSV was not sustainable?

should any potential airline have told TC to take this winter off out of respect for former SSV employees?

would such an act have provided share holder value to those invested in TC?

some say: "why would anyone want to go to JAZ?", when they felt that we had nothing to offer. now some say: "JAZ should allow former SSV pilots to operate the 57." since JAZ now has something to offer.

i would never expect another airline to offer me a DEC position if a seniority based system existed at that airline. i decide whom i want to fly for, with the information i have at that time, then hope for the best.

why would a pilot group that was able to work with management to ensure the success of its airline absorb the pilot group of another airline that was managed poorly.

if this had been a merger then ALPA members would insist on DOH and the SSV pilots would be welcomed onto our seniority list. sadly SSV management let their pilots down and they are stuck applying for a job at JAZ if they so desire.

this is a sad day for SSV but it is a good day for any employee group that is able to continue this flying

Another great post!

[Bede]

I feel for the guys who lost out at SSV. I think this would be one reason to abolish the seniority system...but that's for a different thread.

However, to attack the Jazz MEC is beyond pale and reflects an ignorance in labour relations. I am not a union type guy, but the way our MEC operates is in a very progressive and intelligent manner. I pay big money in union dues and I expect my union to deliver. And deliver they did. The MEC did not force SSV under, but they saw an opportunity to work with Jazz management to secure a contract that will benefit both shareholders and employees.

Saskstyle,
You seem adamantly opposed to Jazz doing this work. With SSV going under who do you think should have picked up the work? Please rationalize your choice.

[SaskStyle]

I still don't see the joy in this

Ask people who were doing their little thing, got merged, went through CCAA, were imposed working conditions, taking conditions cut... how they feel about their company expanding. Ask them pilots about a company that is still negotiating CA with them, but still gets the news out, that this is a sad day.


Life is not fair. Right. but nothing is.

I do hope all people afected by the demise of Skyservice make it through. It is not your failure; it is the Corporation that failed.

No. It is us pilots that have failed. The corporation will do whatever it can to be profitable.

You talk of expansion, I see contraction.

You want me to feel sorry for the Jazz pilot? You use past injustices and hard times to justify another today? Doesn't make sense to me.

[SaskStyle]

I feel for the guys who lost out at SSV. I think this would be one reason to abolish the seniority system...but that's for a different thread.

However, to attack the Jazz MEC is beyond pale and reflects an ignorance in labour relations. I am not a union type guy, but the way our MEC operates is in a very progressive and intelligent manner. I pay big money in union dues and I expect my union to deliver. And deliver they did. The MEC did not force SSV under, but they saw an opportunity to work with Jazz management to secure a contract that will benefit both shareholders and employees.

Saskstyle,
You seem adamantly opposed to Jazz doing this work. With SSV going under who do you think should have picked up the work? Please rationalize your choice.

Doesn't matter to me. I really don't care what "company" does the flying.

I'm disappointed to watch and listen to the Jazz pilot group cheer in the face of their collegues at SkyService. There has been ONE individual that suggested he would consult his MEC regarding those that are out of work.

I'm commenting on the lack of solidarity amongst the pilot group regardless of your company/union affiliation.

Our industry just shrank. Probably necessary due to the current economic conditions, but still far from a day to celebrate.

In my opinion.

You want me to rationalize? I see a net loss to pilots in Canada. There was no expansion. SkyService pilots lost their jobs.
Any growth Jazz experiences will be at the bottom of their payscale, bottom of their seniority list.

Overall, Canadian pilots are making less than they did last week. There's more out of work then were working last week.

I find it interesting that the concept of hiring pilots direct entry is met with such hostility. I understand the reasons, but I still find it pretty selfserving.

Look. Celebrate and enjoy the mood.

It's pointless to discuss this and I don't feel like arguing these concepts because our viewpoints are obviously greatly opposed.

[SaskStyle]

my thoughts go out to my fellow aviators and former SSV pilots. i hope they are able to provide for themselves and their families. i will do what i can by asking my MEC to be aware that these pilots should be given opportunities to train JAZ pilots on the 57 and preferential hiring above other applicants. A bit of class finally.

perhaps some of you could suggest an appropriate amount of time that TC should have waited before they searched for another airline to provide them with lift after they decided that SSV was not sustainable? Let's be realistic...This arrangement has been in the works for quite some time behind closed doors. I find that pretty cutthroat. Especially since Jazz MEC was involved, knowing that this would result in other pilots being out of work. And then to have no plans for a "liferaft" of any sort for them. Is it that crazy of a concept to give a shit?

should any potential airline have told TC to take this winter off out of respect for former SSV employees? see above

would such an act have provided share holder value to those invested in TC? Again...all I'm saying is that we as pilots start looking after each other. I don't want planes to stop flying or companies to go under or passengers to lose their vacation. I just don't want pilots screwing pilots.

some say: "why would anyone want to go to JAZ?", when they felt that we had nothing to offer. now some say: "JAZ should allow former SSV pilots to operate the 57." since JAZ now has something to offer. doesn't make sense. Jazz has a lot to offer on its own, and now yes has 757's. But a/c type has, for the most part, been low on pilot's radar when it comes to job selection. Lifestyle/pay are generally top of list. In this situation, I'm saying since Jazz is now doing what Sky was doing yesterday, why not keep pilot's employed? I know that means looking beyond your greedy nose, but until we as pilot's start doing so...we're doomed to this life of uncertainty.

i would never expect another airline to offer me a DEC position if a seniority based system existed at that airline. i decide whom i want to fly for, with the information i have at that time, then hope for the best. I'm suggesting it's time to revisit that thought process.

why would a pilot group that was able to work with management to ensure the success of its airline absorb the pilot group of another airline that was managed poorly.

if this had been a merger then ALPA members would insist on DOH and the SSV pilots would be welcomed onto our seniority list. sadly SSV management let their pilots down and they are stuck applying for a job at JAZ if they so desire.

this is a sad day for SSV but it is a good day for any employee group that is able to continue this flying

Look. I don't think this is a great post at all. Outside of your suggestion to approach the MEC for some preferential treatment of SkyService pilots, you did nothing but outline everything that stinks about aviation today.

[Localizer]

SaskStyle,

Its not just aviation my friend, all businesses operate in this manner .. cutthroat .. regardless of what you think .. the MEC can only work with our collective agreement, not make corporate decisions. At the end of the day its the corporate entities that pull the trigger ..

[SaskStyle]

SaskStyle,

Its not just aviation my friend, all businesses operate in this manner .. cutthroat .. regardless of what you think .. the MEC can only work with our collective agreement, not make corporate decisions. At the end of the day its the corporate entities that pull the trigger ..

I agree with you that the corporate entities pull the trigger. Their job is to show profits.

I understand that an MEC is limited to the collective agreement. Their job is to protect the working rights of employees.

I'm just disturbed that a MEC would work to secure labour for their pilot group, with zero regard for the other pilots that would be on the street as a result.

I don't know how much clearer I can state that.

The corporate decisions we can complain and bitch about but, really, besides a strike there's not much as employees you can do.

I'm just saying why can't as a pilot group there be solidarity to at least give everyone a fighting chance. On top of continually looking over your shoulder wondering if the company you work for is going to be there, you also have to look over your shoulder at your fellow pilots wondering what they're up to.

It's reality I know. But still pretty discouraging.

And this thread isn't the place for this discussion.

So I do apologize for the hijack. You at Jazz can continue your celebrations.

[mattedfred]

SaskStyle,

I disagree that aircraft type does not influence a pilot's decision to pursue a vacancy at this airline or that. Why would anyone in their right mind sign a training bond or promisary note at JetsGo, or whomever, if this was not the case.

TC approached JAZ unsolicited. JAZ and the JAZ MEC did not approach TC for this work.

Pilot groups choose whether to certify a trade union or not. A trade union must legally represent the interests of their members. It would be up to the JAZ pilot membership to decide whether they wanted to negotiate an LOU that allowed former SSV pilots to operate the 57's. The JAZ MEC could not unilaterally decide to do so without facing a DFR. The JAZ pilot group chose to organize. The JAZ pilot group has also tried to merge with the AC pilot group on several occasions. Did the SSV pilot group choose to organize? Did the SSV pilot group pursue a merger with the JAZ pilot group?

ALPA continues to operate well outside their narrow area of focus in order to benefit our industry in my opinion. FTDT, RAIC, Jumpseats etc. Choosing not to organize or join ALPA, then whining about why ALPA was not there to help you is just a little disingenuous in my opinion.

What has WJ chosen to do for our fellow aviators? Why hasn't the WJPA convinced WJ to offer every CJ Captain a DEC position so they don't have to work for less than industry standard wages?

And you still have not answered the question about what you are prepared to do for the former SSV pilots?

[Localizer]

I'm just disturbed that a MEC would work to secure labour for their pilot group, with zero regard for the other pilots that would be on the street as a result.

Because the MEC is funded and supported by the Jazz pilots. I pay union dues .. how much have you paid to the Jazz MEC/ALPA for them to support and look out for your well being? When Jazz was over staffed and offering LOA's and reduced time blocks, why didn't the SSV pilots step in with an olive branch and offer jobs to those who may have ended up on the street?

Regardless if you think Jazz "stole" your work or not .. Be honest .. If we were in the same boat as you this conversation wouldn't be taking place. You wouldn't listen to our cries and you wouldn't even consider what some here are considering for you. You're not the first to be in the situation and you're not the last ... That being said ... I don't like to leave a brother in the cold and would support SSV pilots on contract for the training and offering employment for vacancies.

[ChallengerDan]

No. It is us pilots that have failed. The corporation will do whatever it can to be profitable.

The pilot job is to fly aircraft and its content safely and as efficiently as possible. Not to make ends meet.

The management job is to make it work smoothly and make sure the books are not going to be filled with red.

The pilot group, as with any other employee group, might be a good or bad contributing factor to the equation.

SSV were victim of maket consolidation as one of their primary customers merged with Sunwing. The remainder of the opearation was not sustainable at current debt ratios. (Gibralt financed too much in order to buy it from the Skyservice investment group)
Unfortunately, Thomas Cook felt they were better off setting up a new operation than salvage SSV.

You talk of expansion, I see contraction.

This is not putting new capacity on the market.
I talk of expansion at Jazz, not in the business at large. Totally different.
Tell me what's worse, SaskStyle: having an organized, structured and unionized group of people taking on some new flying or have a greedy business man seting up some new opearation, lowballing every employee group, working agaisint unions and talking pretty much every profit to himself before letting the company go belly up, running with his fortune?
This could be some sort of Obadia or Leblanc taking the Thomas Cook contract.

I am sure somebody could come out with a nice plan in order to get the guys that are looking to progress onto bigger equipment to do it for cheaper that what the Jazz guys are going to do it for. Easily. There is absolutely no way that Jazz was the lowest bidder if this thing did go out to tender. Jazz is sometimes labeled as the most expensive Regional airline in North America.
I like to think that you get what you pay for.

[SaskStyle]

OK.

I'll try one more time to explain my arguments and my concerns.

First though, I want to make it very clear I have no bones whatsover about Jazz getting the flying. Jazz is a good company, good benefits, nice lifestyle etc. And as ChallengerDan said, the alternatives could have been a lot worse.

The fact that another company is doing the flying has never been my concern. If you review my comments, I'm sure you'll find me repeating the same theme over and over.

My concern is this.

Pilot group "A" knew that they were securing work that Pilot group "B" was doing last week.

I'm assuming that those involved during the meetings preluding this event did not consider options to protect at least some of those pilot's jobs.

I put that idea to the forum here, and the overwhelming response has been that there is absolutely no need for them (Jazz) to do so. Business is business. Tough luck to those that are on the other side.

This little experience has only convinced me of what I knew all along after years of being in this industry. There is more honour among thieves then there is amongst us pilots. We hide behind the unions and various companies and circle our wagons cheering of "expansion" when new metal shows up in the driveway.

All of your justifications for why this happened are solid. The reasons listed why SS went out of business I can't argue with.

However, all of the justifications that you Jazz pilots are using are laced with arrogance born out of the arrival of new planes.

There was no talk at all of how to get those pilots back in the saddle.

"And you still have not answered the question about what you are prepared to do for the former SSV pilots?"

That was a response that someone posted to me. Out of all this discussion, the most you can come up with is what I am prepared to do?

If they wanted to come do the flying I do, I would do what I could to get them on. If my company had their airplanes parked in my driveway now, I would do what I could to make sure they were still flying them. But the planes are not on my driveway, they're on yours.

//personal attack removed by Sulako. It's not nice to swear at individual posters, next time's a strike.