Msg. to Jazz pilots (and cautionary tale for all pilots)

[slob driver]

To my fellow professional aviators,

Over the last couple of days I have been digesting the news that your MEC is negotiating status pay for all types in the CBA, not having a separate scale for the 757's. Is this a good thing or bad thing? Also, I was wondering if Jazz management had the blessing of Rovinescu and Air Canada in signing the agreement with Thomas Cook. I have come up with a theory as to why Air Canada wholeheartedly supports this contract, and also why the Jazz MEC MUST negotiate a fair and equitable payscale for ALL the aircraft that they will be flying going forward. Please follow along;

2010- Jazz receives contract to fly 6-11 757's on behalf of Thomas Cook Travel. Two months later LOU in new CBA states that top level wage rate for all Jazz captains is $130/hour, with first officers paid 60% of this number. Wage makes Jazz pilot lowest paid 757 pilots in Canada, but highest paid Dash 8 pilots. Jazz pilots rejoice.

2012- Air Canada contracts all vacation flying to Thomas Cook. WS and Transat must follow suit to stay cost competitive. Thomas Cook then sub-contracts that flying to Jazz, due to the fact that Jazz employee costs are so low. Jazz pilots now flying 757's, 767's and 737's for $135.25/hr (2% cpi adjusted per year for two years) versus what AC, WS and Transat pilots were flying those same planes for (between $175-$195/hr). However Jazz pilots are still far and away the highest paid Dash 8 pilots in Canada. Jazz pilots still rejoice. But so does all senior airline management in Canada. No other major airline pilot group has a positive taste in their mouths for Jazz pilots.

2013- Through loophole in CPA between Jazz and Air Canada, Air Canada signs new contract with Ggn, CMA, and Air Lab to take over all Dash 8 CPA flying. Air Canada wishes to lower the CPA cost. What better way than to have Dash 8 captains making $65/hr. versus $137.96 (2% cpi adjusted)? Now Jazz pilots have lost Dash 8 flying and are still the lowest paid 737/757/767 pilots in North America. Rovinescu and co. extremely happy due to cost of vacation flying and ALL regional turboprop flying being substantially reduced from pre-2010 levels.

Obviously I am being a conspiracy theorist, but do you think that this is not possible?

I realize that many Jazz pilots feel slighted by Air Canada and ACPA, whether it be from Picher, common employer, being rejected by Air Canada in the interview process, or the pass situation currently taking place. All that being said, you must realize that your LOU/CBA for the 757 payrates affect ALL pilots in Canada, probably in North America. Please keep this in mind, regardless of what your MEC is telling you. Make the company and your MEC negotiate a wage rate that is fair and equitable for ALL the aircraft that
you fly. If this is done, you can hold your heads high when walking in all terminals in North America. If the negotiation goes the hypothetical way that I have outlined, then you will quite possibly be the pariahs of the North American airline industry.

Regards,

Concerned WS pilot

[teacher]

This doesn't change the fact that the percentage of expenses paid in wages does not change, only the way it distributed. The savings don't come from paying pilot differently.

Numbers are made up FYI:

$100 million paid in wages to X number of pilots at same X% each.

or

$100 million paid in wages to X dash, X CRJ and X 757 pilots at different X% per type.

It's the same amount paid out regardless. If AC wants to go cheaper nothing is gonna stop them. I do agree that your scenerio could happen but walking away from status pay isn't gonna help us or AC save money.

As for passing cost savings onto TC for having "cheaper paid pilots" a doubt that would happen since Jazz still has to pay the increase in salaries to the other pilots in the group. Jazz may charge $150 per hour for crew costson the 757 but the $30 extra an hour is split between all Jazz pilots (again all numbers made up).

This is just a guess as lots of details still need to be worked out and I as a line pilot will be the last to know how this works out.

For the last time though, in a status pay system you cannot compare type salaries only % of expenses paid out to employees.

[slob driver]

I absolutely apologize for not pointing out that all numbers used in the above example are hypothetical.

I must point out that I am not against status pay. In my hypothetical scenario I never attacked a status pay system. Anyone that puts some thought to it realizes the merits of a status pay system to both the company and the employee. Just so long as the status pay system is fair and equitable for all pilots on all types being flown.

Quote from teacher-"If AC wants to go cheaper nothing is gonna stop them."

You know what would stop AC from going cheaper? If pilots refused to do it for cheaper. The end result of Jazz pilots flying 757's for 130/hr (hypothetical) is cheaper costs to Thomas Cook. That is all that matters to Thomas Cook, and all other airlines by extension. You refuse to fly the '75 for this, and you will be doing a tremendous service to ALL pilots in Canada, including yourselves, in the long run.

I believe that the Jazz pilots have a tremendous opportunity to show that they are not willing to participate in the race to the bottom. Negotiate a fair and equitable status pay system for ALL of the types that you will be flying, not just Dash 8's OR 757's.

Good luck

[teacher]

Agreed totally! You won't see a single Jazz pilot accepting to fly for less than is fair. Keep in mind though that this contract is 6 aircraft for 6 months.

[mattedfred]

Slob Driver,

How about this prediction?

JAZ chooses not to pursue any revenue sources independent of the CPA with AC

AC files for CCAA

JAZ is immediately affected as almost all of their revenue is derived from the CPA with AC

AC decides not to renew the CPA with JAZ

100% of JAZ employees furloughed while JAZ desperately searches for work

So my question is:

What would most publicly traded corporations choose to do if they new that this scenario could occur?

Another comment:

the JAZ MEC negotiates the best WAWCON for the majority of the membership and not for the aircraft. i don't know of a single airline that failed as a direct result of pilot WAWCON. comparing the hourly rate of an airline with a status pay system and 37 to over 200 seat aircraft to an airline with single type or very similar types without status pay is apples and oranges. if JAZ did not have status pay then i would insist on industry standard wages on the 57. we do not. AC, WJ, TSC, SW will not fail if their pay rates are higher than JAZ's if they are well managed.

management manages. pilots pilot. pilots have the ability to pilot the aircraft into the ground but it is the management that has the ability to manage the airline into the ground.

[teacher]

The hypothetical $130/hr is still charged to TC at $150 with the extra $20 covering the the rest of the pilot groups increases up to $130/hr with everyone making the same amount relative to seat and seniority.

I know my numbers are probably way off but the end result doesn't change. TC doesn't save money on pilot wages because Jazz still HAS TO charge non status pay rates to TC to cover the top up to the pilots on other aircraft types.

[slob driver]

I am obviously not certain (since I am just a lowbrow line pilot!) but I don't think that TC will be covering any pay uplift for the Dash/RJ drivers. They will just be covering the 757 flying in their contract. The cheaper that Jazz gets that flying for from your MEC and membership, the better for the corporation, since more money from that contract will go into their coffers. Of course the argument could be made that then it comes out of Jazz's coffers to uplift the Dash/RJ wage. True. But what kind of wage increase were you guys and women going to get regardless of the 757's coming? I hope a substantial one, considering the AO payrates of yesteryear and the CCAA concessions that were given in the past. That money should be coming out of the corporations coffers no matter what.
With regards to you saying that all of this is really just about 6 airplanes, your MEC is hopefully not negotiating this way. This type of flying could be a very large part of Jazz's revenue stream in the future, as my above example shows. Look at Republic in the U.S. They (the IBT) negotiated a substandard rate in 2003 for EMB 190 flying not really thinking of the ramifications. Now they are doing Midwest flying at wages and working conditions that are wholeheartedly substandard to the conditions and rates that the REAL Midwest Airlines used to fly these routes for only 3 years ago.

[teacher]

Absolutly correct. However that is a job for our MEC and ALPA to see how the books are done and determine pay rates as no one on this board has any details or info. It all really depends on how the contract is being charged. It's Jazz's responsibility to charge correctly,our MECs responsibility to negotiate responsibly and our pilot groups responisbility to review the data and vote appropriatly. Jazz can charge what it wants for it's pilot's time. They could charge $500 an hour if they wanted and use the surplus as needed. When I instructed the school charged $50 and hour and I saw $20 of that. Same thing may be done with TC, WHO KNOWS! Jazz charges TC $150/hour per pilot captain and $90/hr per fo period, than pilots are paid as per status whatever that rate will be as per the new collective agreement.

All I can say is what I think should be done and that's charge the right amount and split the appropriate 757 pay rates among the rest of the group (like I've said a bunch of times already ). All we can do is wait and see what is offered.

[Mig29]

Slob Driver,
great post, maybe it should be on Jazz forum?

cheers

[Redwine]

Concerned WS Pilot?
Which company lowered the bar to begin with back in the day? Now we are ALL low cost carriers thanks to...

[Pratt]

Slob Driver,

How about this prediction?

JAZ chooses not to pursue any revenue sources independent of the CPA with AC

AC files for CCAA

JAZ is immediately affected as almost all of their revenue is derived from the CPA with AC

AC decides not to renew the CPA with JAZ

100% of JAZ employees furloughed while JAZ desperately searches for work

So my question is:

What would most publicly traded corporations choose to do if they new that this scenario could occur?

Another comment:

the JAZ MEC negotiates the best WAWCON for the majority of the membership and not for the aircraft. i don't know of a single airline that failed as a direct result of pilot WAWCON. comparing the hourly rate of an airline with a status pay system and 37 to over 200 seat aircraft to an airline with single type or very similar types without status pay is apples and oranges. if JAZ did not have status pay then i would insist on industry standard wages on the 57. we do not. AC, WJ, TSC, SW will not fail if their pay rates are higher than JAZ's if they are well managed.

management manages. pilots pilot. pilots have the ability to pilot the aircraft into the ground but it is the management that has the ability to manage the airline into the ground.

+1

[slob driver]

I decided to post my post where I did so all airline pilots on this forum would read it. This doesn't affect just Jazz pilots in my opinion.

As for WS pilots lowering the bar....I don't even know what to say. Obviously I am biased when it comes to my company. I truly believe in the way that WS historically compensated the pilots(pre-2006), and how we are compensated now. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we? Perhaps leaving the negative rhetoric out of this discussion would be a civilized and mature thing to do.

I forgot. We are on a board where we don't have to say which airline we work for. Oh well.

[CanadianEh]

I decided to post my post where I did so all airline pilots on this forum would read it. This doesn't affect just Jazz pilots in my opinion.

As for WS pilots lowering the bar....I don't even know what to say. Obviously I am biased when it comes to my company. I truly believe in the way that WS historically compensated the pilots(pre-2006), and how we are compensated now. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we? Perhaps leaving the negative rhetoric out of this discussion would be a civilized and mature thing to do.

I forgot. We are on a board where we don't have to say which airline we work for. Oh well.

+1. Southwest and Westjet pilots are some of the best paid 737 pilots in North America. A 12 year 737 Capt. at American Airlines makes $166/hr and a 12 year 737 Capt. at Southwest makes $206/hr.

[rudder]

+1. Southwest and Westjet pilots are some of the best paid 737 pilots in North America. A 12 year 737 Capt. at American Airlines makes $166/hr and a 12 year 737 Capt. at Southwest makes $206/hr.

And 11 years ago a WJ B737 pilot was making $95/hr and an AC DC9 pilot was making $170/hr with cadillac pension and benefiits.

So what lesson is to be learned? A profitable company can afford to improve pay and the dinosaurs will continue the slow backwards march to extinction.

[mbav8r]

Slob Driver, WS Pilots are essentially, currently paid status pay by way of single type. I remember when talk first surfaced about 787's for you, one of the first things was the only way to do it would be up the pay across the board. Am I wrong or would your group elect to keep a status pay and be lower paid 87 drivers and higher paid 37 drivers? Didn't this come up at one of your town hall meetings? I'm curious, because I could've just dreamt this whole thing up, you never know.

[KAG]

It was never mentioned in a town hall meeting but it was and has been discussed in the flight decks. The general consensus (among those I have spoken with anyway) is status pay would be approved by the pilot group with more days off awarded. At this point a flight deck is a flight deck, I would fly a 787 (or similar size) for the same wage I’m making now if I could work 8-10 days a month. In effect it’s a pay increase, a lifestyle increase anyway and to me that is worth a tangible amount.
It might go against the grain, or out right piss some people off, but I would rather make less money then some but have a full career in a very stable company. That said I’m sure with time the wages would go up.

Redwine, you blame WS for lowering the bar back in the day. If it was so low then why are those first poorly paid pilots very well off? And after the first crazy days of insane stock gains, those next generation pilots were still cashing profiting sharing cheques that were buying trucks for cash, and still paying off mortgages with stock options (but not the millions the first guys made). Once that dropped off the wages went up. You’ll be hard pressed to find anyone within our ranks that complains about money. Were not the highest paid, nor will we ever be, but it is a good wage all the same.

As for Jazz and status pay, the more I think on it, the more I don’t believe the status pay will hold. I can see a second scale coming in for the 57, it has to. You cannot up the Dash scale anymore and be at all affordable to AC, nor can I see the senior RJ CPTS agreeing to fly the 57 at that low a wage. TC was happy to pay Skyservice a set rate that included the pilot wages (which were good) so it will be up to the Jazz pilot group to negotiate to a fair wage. Interesting times ahead, good luck to the Jazz folks and their upcoming contract talks.

[slob driver]

After I put these posts on Avcanada yesterday, I was talking to an esteemed colleague who is a captain at Jazz. He agreed that the current payscale at Jazz is problematic when it comes to flying 757's/737's etc., which is flying that Jazz is obviously going after from now on. He came up with an idea that is simple but effective. It also stays within the line of thinking of having a status pay system that keeps costs competitive for the company.

1- Keep status pay, but extend the years of service for captains to say, 30-35 years.

2- Based on the % of 757's or 737's or whatever, make the payscale of the top years correspond to that %.

Eg. 6 757's = approx. 40-50 captains, which equals approx. 5-6% of total captains at Jazz. The top 5-6% of captains have 30 years of service. So at year 30, there is a big pay bump that equals the going 757 payrate in Canada. What if Jazz gets the full 11 757's you ask? Then the ratio goes up. 11 757'5 equal approx. 85 captains, which equals 9% of total captains at Jazz. 9% of the captains have 27 years seniority? Then the big pay bump goes to year 27.

F/O's would probably go to a year 15 scale. They would be getting a good wage to be sitting in the right seat of any aircraft that Jazz had, but it would have to still be less than all captains would be making. You want an incentive for an F/O to go captain. Again you can make it a ratio of where an F/O would get a big pay bump in the top years of the scale.

Company is happy because wages have been contained. Jazz pilots are happy because status pay was preserved, and a huge pay bump can be expected later in their careers. Pilots in Canada are happy because they weren't undercut. Are there Dash 8 pilots making $160/hour? Yes, but who cares?

Teacher, I believe you were getting at something like this with your stats. In a lot of Jazz pilots arguments though, they would just give a HUGE raise to everyone. The company won't go along with this. To give EVERYONE a one time 30% wage increase is a HUGE amount that the company has to dole out, but this rate still makes Jazz pilots the lowest 757 pilots by a long shot. I believe my example above keeps everyone content. Well, as content as pilots can be anyways!!

I would love to see what everyone thinks of this solution.

Note; All numbers used are hypothetical. Please do not take them as anything else. Also these numbers are not taking the raise that Jazz pilots will get with the upcoming CBA into account.

[rudder]

Interesting to see a bunch of pilots that do not even work under status pay explain how it should work

Perhaps these airlines should switch to status pay and then at least the discussion will be apples to apples. Right now it is little more than armchair quarterbacking.

[flyinhigh]

I find it funny that we keep being called the lowest paid 57 drivers in Canada, when in fact we will be the ONLY paid 57 drivers in Canada. I also find it funny that not a single person in Canada other than the folks on our MEC and the company have a clue what the wage on these birds will be making.

As for the pay, How about this, Keep it the way it is. Everyone gets 20% raise across the board, much easier to figure out, and it keeps the balance of LIFE STYLE that everyone here at Jazz seems to like so much, NO chasing planes because i'll make more here or there.

I you all feel that it's wrong, I invite you to come join us flying here, join our MEC and change the way it is.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

For me it would depend on how much the increase in the status pay was. According to airlinepilotcentral.com the top Jazz pay rate right now is $105/hour. I don't know if this is accurate. If it is, and your hypothetical top rate of $130/hour came into being, that would be about a 25% pay increase for all ~1500 Jazz pilots. If you compare this to setting a 757 specific rate of say $166/hour (the top rate for a A320 series captain at Air Canada according to airlinepilotcentral) then I would say that a 25% increase for all Jazz pilots is better than a 60% increase for the top 100 or so who would fly the 757.

I think Jazz management will be the ones pushing for separate rate for the 757 though (if they can't get the union to agree to no status pay increase). It's cheaper for them to pay the top 100 guys 60% more than probably even a 5% raise for the whole pilot group.

[flyer 1492]

106.10/hour

[confuzed]

I find it funny that we keep being called the lowest paid 57 drivers in Canada, when in fact we will be the ONLY paid 57 drivers in Canada. I also find it funny that not a single person in Canada other than the folks on our MEC and the company have a clue what the wage on these birds will be making.

Ummm, no you won't be dude. I think you're forgetting about Cargojet and soon to be Morningstar, who both (one starting this summer from what I hear) will be running these aircraft. Cargojet pays low yes, but Morningstar is one of the best paying companies in the country.

[flyinhigh]

Ummm, no you won't be dude. I think you're forgetting about Cargojet and soon to be Morningstar, who both (one starting this summer from what I hear) will be running these aircraft. Cargojet pays low yes, but Morningstar is one of the best paying companies in the country.

Off topic a bit, but when did they get the 57's. I knew that they had the 67's. Good for them, much better aircraft all around over the 2's.

Oh sorry just reread your post, so there both GETTING them, correct.

[confuzed]

Ummm, no you won't be dude. I think you're forgetting about Cargojet and soon to be Morningstar, who both (one starting this summer from what I hear) will be running these aircraft. Cargojet pays low yes, but Morningstar is one of the best paying companies in the country.

Off topic a bit, but when did they get the 57's. I knew that they had the 67's. Good for them, much better aircraft all around over the 2's.

Oh sorry just reread your post, so there both GETTING them, correct.

Well as far as I had heard Cargojet already had the 757s along with the 767s...someone who works there can correct me if I'm wrong, but I just looked on airliners.net and there's a picture of a 757 in their colors taking off from Halifax. As for Morningstar, from what I'm reading they're getting them this summer....they have a job ad for experienced captains starting a contract this summer to get their current captains up to speed.

[hypoxic]

A status pay system with such a large disparity between aircraft and contracts won't work. imho. What happens to the rj/-8 pay when TC finds someone else to do the work? Will it drop back down to the rate before the TC contract? What about when AC looks at the numbers and rj/-8 pilots are making more than E190 pilots plus the 12% markup to fly airplanes that have on average have half the number of seats? Will there be any advantage to have Jazz do the CPA work?