Wall of Text about pilot career...

[Daedalleus]

Hello everyone,

I got this forum thanks to a CARGAIR instructor,

Here is my situation
Im from st-hubert (YHU), im a nurse, i speak 3 languages, im 30yo, i have a wife (nurse also) et a 2yo daugther.

I would like to change career and become a pilot (always loved aviation). BUT it seems im getting bullshitted by both sides ill explain: I've been to 3 schools in YHU, (sthubertflyingschool, CPAQ-AERO and CARGAIR) all 3 cant agree on a point... exept that NOW is THE TIME to go and get a CPL because of various reason that you prolly all heard already.

THEN on the forums everybody is whinning about the fact that theses are troubled times, no market, aviation is having difficulties. Moreso there is a video on the french section of a show called ENQUETE talking about countless hours pilots have to do, bad salary, bad work conditions, people in the US living in winnebago's on the airport parking lot. ALL this dosent really add up.

Now all that dosent really stop me, as i am not really attached to anywhere and as a nurse there is work everywhere in the world should something go wrong

I've been told to do my CPL and go to yellowknife, australia or africa to get hours up quickly (my wife likes the idea of going to africa a lot btw) and a decent salary between 20 and 40K in the beguining or stay in Quebec/canada as a flight instructor at 31$/h flown.

I wanna know yay or nay aviation?
yes or no new career?

finally why the big difference between sthubertflyingschool 38K and CARGAIR 45K? is there one that dosent charge enough up front and have hidden fees? or CARGAIR charging too much because it's CARGAIR? what is the justification?

Sorry for this wall of text but i have question and i have to pay the house and the bills, so i wanna be prepared because comming from a income of 50K to around 15ish isint really what i call a winning tradeoff.

[Bushav8er]

I'm no expert but...

All schools have to teach the same things for a licence, so if the aircraft are the same (C172 for example) then pick the cheapest BUT first talk to them and see if the school and instructors match you.

- With no experience, good luck working overseas.
- There are generally two paths to building experience: 1) Instructor (good luck finding a job as a class 4 and getting $31/hr), 2) Bush - be prepared to work the ramp or dock.
- be prepared for entry incomes like you mentioned $15-$18K
- Most important...there have been several lay-offs and closing companies lately. This has put a lot of high-time, experienced guys on the street looking for work. Unless when you finish training at the right time, don't expect anything anytime soon.

Ask yourself WHY you want to fly. A career can be a life time of pursuing the 'dream' and looking for greener grass, with little income. If you just like to fly, keep your current job, get a Private licence, maybe even buy your own plane, and enjoy flying now; where, when and how you like it, not as someone tells you. Later, if you still feel like you want a career, get the Commercial but keep flying privately. Further down the road add the multi or IFR. You'll a) have more experience by then and b) be able to determine if you really want to make flying a career.

Best of luck

[200hr Wonder]

I think Bushav8er has great points, I will add a few:

Remember that schools are in the business of training pilots, so for them it is ALWAYS the right time to do training! Aviation is very cyclical in nature, and right now we are at the bottom of a cycle, the previous one being right after 9/11, so yes in 2 or maybe 3 years when you get your license done, we may be on an upswing and you will be well positioned to get into the industry. You have quite a few things working for and against you in your particular situation. Remember that this is not an all or nothing proposition. What I would consider is first of all go out do a familiarization flight, get the feel for it. Then ponder and decide if you really want to fly. If the answer is yes, go get a Cat 1 medical done, and take 4 to 6 months and really focus and work hard on a Private Pilots License. If you stop there you can rent and fly purely as a hobby and enjoy it. Once you are at the Private Pilot level, take some to think long and hard again before pursing your Commercial Pilots License. You can most certainly take six months, do some trips with your PPL, gain some flight hours. I highly recommend getting a night rating fairly soon after your PPL. It is a whole tonne of a fun. Then if you decide to pursue your CPL, set out a plan to get your multi/ifr/float what ever way you want to go, but do it with intense training. Once you are done that and your licensed the reality is you will be grossing $18-$21/yr from aviation. Be it working the dock/ramp somewhere or flight instructing. Each has its pros and cons. Now you are situation I bet you could still pull casual/part time nursing shifts while doing the ramp/dock or instructing thing. Lord knows there are never enough nurses! Of course you will also most certainly be required to move out of a major center unless you stick to instructing. So see how your wife feels about that. The realities of going over seas to work are you need more than 200hrs and a CPL to do it, you need a few thousand hours some multi command time to have a realistic chance.

So yes there is a wall of text in response to your wall of text.

A second option to consider being that you are a nurse is to look into being a flight nurse for air ambulance flights. There is an outfit out of Ontario that does repatriations I believe that uses flight nurses quite extensively but I can't recall their name.

[SuperchargedRS]

People are always going to nag about jobs, if they dont blame it on the economy it will be terrorists, or El Nino. or .... It's what you make of it, people who make money in life tend to be able to switch carriers and still make money, it's just knowing how to squeeze all the juice out of the orange ya know!

That being said, I am sure it is allot easier to follow the yellow brick road of becoming a male nurse and making xx dollars. In aviation you have to blaze your own trail a little more.

IMO the school is not a factor, what and how you fly is. I would advise you to get your private in a glider, get your single engine in a tail dragger and build all your cross countries going across the country/ies in said tail dragger get your float or instructors and IFR (dont worry about the multi until you have been working for a while). Do that and you will have a LARGE leg up on all the 200hr wonders who have all their experience in a 250nm circle flying a milk stool.

As far as getting a job you have two applicants.

Applicant A) Looks online, calls (at odd hours lol) and email/fax resumes all over. They end up crying on avcanada about jobs.

Applicant B) Finds out what companies are still in business, calls to find the best time to run into the chief pilot (and a little light recon about the company) and DELIVERS a resume. This person gets a job.

Before you worry about jobs and all that stuff, go take a few flights and make sure this is what you want to do with your life (because god know we dont need anymore weekend warriors trying to take us out or pissing ATC off) and that you have at least a little bit of a natural aptitude for it.

[iflyforpie]

There are two types of job hunting/working conditions for new commercial pilots...

Intolerable (the good times).

Impossible (the bad times).

The economic conditions are only an average. Individuals have different results based on skill, luck, and determination.


As far as wanting to do this, ask yourself this question. Do you want to be able to attend your daughter's birthdays? Go out for dinner with your wife on your anniversary? Take a family vacation for a week?

Once you've got the dream job (flying airplanes) all of a sudden you start looking at other things in life that office drones take for granted. I know that the medical field doesn't have the greenest grass either (my wife is a care aid), but at least the pay and benefits are decent, the job security is good, and you don't need to relocate or go away from home.

If it wasn't for my current job and its pay, schedule, and general stability, I would probably quit flying commercially. I still have to miss every summer vacation with my kids though...

We are also planning on going overseas, but I am glad I got a few hours under my belt before I go.

[Randleman]

or stay in Quebec/canada as a flight instructor at 31$/h flown.

$31 an hour for instructing?!?! Where is this!!

[Daedalleus]

@Randleman: an instructor told me that at CARGAIR in comparison to the other school on YHU who he said pay's 15 to 23$. As for me i dont know im just writing what i've been told.


@iflyforpie: Your right i would really like to spend as much time with the familly as possible, but like u said the medical field isint better ( mandatory overtime, 1weekend on 2, seniority for hollidays ( on 3000 employées you end up taking the bit's and scratches when it comes to you, seniority accumulates from a hospital only, if you move you start over like pilots)...

i like the day ON/OFF schedule like police officers and firefighters, and high end salary... i could study more and make more as a nurse but its not as "fun" and never the same "possibilities" that flying gives


about overseas i was told africa and northern canada hire pilots with around 250 to 500 hrs with a cpl,night,multi-ifr license???


@SuperchargedRS: I didint really folow a road... i have lots of formation; Diploma in auto mechanic, nursing, 2 minors in administration, specialisation in high performance auto, i just didint know what i wanted to do in life.
At 30 im trying flying witch is something i ALWAYS wanted to do but never really had the means to do it...

and as for applying for jobs im the face to face type of person.


@200hr Wonder: moving isint really an issue for us, But paying the bills is... i think that from what i've read so far the match plan is looking something similar to this--->

get PPL + night and fly a few hundred hours for me, familly and friends while i continue nursing... (and see how the market is going)
then CPL + multiIFR and move where the work is.

i've been told buying a used plane is also a great investment for building up hours???


u guys waiting for something to happend to the aviation field (IE: union, new technology lowering the costs, etc?)
anything that you guys are hoping its comming because it would change everything for the best???

@Bushav8er and the others thanks for the answers

[zed]

I might suggest option, none of the above. I do not know all of your family financial situations, but I will assume it is pretty reasonable and provides you mobility since you are willing to support a family while living in Africa/Northern Canada and earning little. You also currently have a job that pays and supports your family lifestyle. Combine the two...

Shop around and look at some of the busier schools in Canada (not necessarily in Quebec) and find out which one's will be willing to give you a position as Instructor for at least long enough to obtain your class 3s, or longer if they are willing to keep you. On your side of the fence, you commit to them to spend your money on them for your CPL, Instructor rating, taildragger, Multi engine, IFR and whatever else. The only catch with this one is you will need to re-locate to be with them. You may also need to re-locate a second time if they can't keep you after you get your Class 3s. But if your worth anything, they will try very hard to keep you on if they possibly can. If you commit to this route, meet the people, talk to people and make sure their is no doubt about their good reputation.

As a nurse, I am not sure how much of a pain it would be to re-certify in another province, but you could look at actually keeping your job but at this new location. This would smooth out the transition from nursing to piloting. It also provides you a cushion if you are having problems getting hired on. The downside is that it slows down your acquisition of your ratings, or will limit your home life with family. Diving straight in you assume great risk, but if everything work out you will be attaining your pilot goals far more quickly. Note if everything works out. The risk-benefit assessment over which option is best for you is something you need to figure out for yourself and your family. Because no matter what decision you make, its going to affect them big time!!

But as mentioned previously, examine your goals and understand that being a pilot is a job and the glamour wears thin when you get tired and beat down. But like most jobs if you think you will still find it enjoyable then go ahead and develop a multi-year plan and execute it. It will change with time and opportunities, but at least you will being working towards your goals. Good Luck.

[g_goo_goo]

Get a Private license and maybe an IFR rating and fly whenever you can. Starting at 15K-20K it may take you 10 years to get back to 50K income, and by then you'll certainly be making more as a nurse. Also consider your family life will definitely be affected. If you have a 2 y/o daughter these may be the times you don't want to miss her growing up. If you like to fly and you also like to learn, get a CPL after your PPL, you will learn to be a better pilot... Also, save the money and buy your own plane - aircraft is quite affordable since the downturn of the economy. You can probably pick up a decent starter 4 seater single for no more than 50K.

What I am saying is it's a tough world in the aviation industry... and I can only see it getting worse; check out the other forums and you'll see the people looking for work or complaining about how they are treated in that industry. I'm not saying don't go for it but do your due diligence.

[RVR6000]

I would agree with whats being suggested by others. Get your PPL and night rating, buy an aircraft and fly it on the weekends. If you want to fly full-time, look into becoming a flight nurse with ORNGE, their pay and benefits are excellent.

[172PIC]

The only reason to start a career as a pilot is because you love flying, despite anything. If you have any reservations on income, job stability etc. that aren't overcome by your sheer love of flying it's probably not the right career move.

If you have the money up front buying your own aircraft for training can be a good investment. Instead of paying rent on a club plane you're investing in your own plane that will likely retain a good chunk of its value. However maintenance can cost quite a bit, if you suddenly find yourself needing an engine overhaul etc. Add insurance etc. to the costs too. However it's your plane, it's always available so you're not competing with other club members for time on it. If you have $20-40k to spend on a plane I'd certainly look into it, just be very thorough in researching the costs etc.

It is a hard career to get in to but take what you read on forums with a grain of salt as it seems most web forums always have an air of negativity to them.

[Bushav8er]

The only reason to start a career as a pilot is because you love flying~

That should be the only reason but there are still those (uninformed youngsters and Egotists) that enter for the gold braid, money and lifestyle

[CSk3RampBOY]

Dear Daedalleus,

I'm an instructor at YHU and I enjoy my job very much. I work a lot, fly a lot and get paid very well! if you have any questions, pm me..

1) Instructor (good luck finding a job as a class 4 and getting $31/hr),

Well, guess he hasn't heard of us?
Bushav8er makes very good points in response though! Start by getting a PPL first and take it one step at a time.

It doesn't matter what the job market is in the industry while your training! In 2007, everybody here on avcanada was talking about how great times are and that now was the time to start. Well if you began your training in late 2007, you would have graduated in the market conditions we have today!
Concentrate on getting PPL first, and take it one step at a time. Its a cyclical industry and it's always subject to change. Who knows what will happen tomorow!

finally why the big difference between sthubertflyingschool 38K and CARGAIR 45K? is there one that dosent charge enough up front and have hidden fees? or CARGAIR charging too much because it's CARGAIR? what is the justification?

There are no hidden fees at Cargair, I can tell you that.

or stay in Quebec/canada as a flight instructor at 31$/h flown.

$31 an hour for instructing?!?! Where is this!!

Hehehe...I love my job!

[Daedalleus]

I would agree with whats being suggested by others. Get your PPL and night rating, buy an aircraft and fly it on the weekends. If you want to fly full-time, look into becoming a flight nurse with ORNGE, their pay and benefits are excellent.

i went on the website very interesting but it looks like its mostly helicopters...

and i heard that helicopters is 3 to 4 time more expensive than airplane... i dont have that kind of money.

[Bushav8er]

I would agree with whats being suggested by others. Get your PPL and night rating, buy an aircraft and fly it on the weekends. If you want to fly full-time, look into becoming a flight nurse with ORNGE, their pay and benefits are excellent.

i went on the website very interesting but it looks like its mostly helicopters...

and i heard that helicopters is 3 to 4 time more expensive than airplane... i dont have that kind of money.

It looks like that but they have many PC12s now. If interested best to ask them or see if someone with Ornge is here.

[SuperchargedRS]

...it may take you 10 years to get back to 50K income,...

Huh? if it takes you a decade to be in a position to clear just over 2k per paycheck (4166 per month/ 50k year) then your doing something wrong!

[g_goo_goo]

...it may take you 10 years to get back to 50K income,...

Huh? if it takes you a decade to be in a position to clear just over 2k per paycheck (4166 per month/ 50k year) then your doing something wrong!

I'm sure there are plenty of people who have worked in other industries that have worked at their jobs for more than 10 years that are clearing only 2k per paycheck. I'm sure this happens in the aviation industry too. My point is the guy is willing to take a paycut and it may take him 10 years to get back to the level he's at already.

But heck if I made a million dollars per year, I can still live comfortably if my salary got chopped in 1/2 but it might be a little more difficult to enjoy the things you take for granted when you're making 50K/year and have to a paycut of 50% or more.

[Daedalleus]

...it may take you 10 years to get back to 50K income,...

Huh? if it takes you a decade to be in a position to clear just over 2k per paycheck (4166 per month/ 50k year) then your doing something wrong!

I'm sure there are plenty of people who have worked in other industries that have worked at their jobs for more than 10 years that are clearing only 2k per paycheck. I'm sure this happens in the aviation industry too. My point is the guy is willing to take a paycut and it may take him 10 years to get back to the level he's at already.

But heck if I made a million dollars per year, I can still live comfortably if my salary got chopped in 1/2 but it might be a little more difficult to enjoy the things you take for granted when you're making 50K/year and have to a paycut of 50% or more.

ty

[Bobby868]

No . . . don't do it.

Get your private licence. Buy or rent a plane and enjoy your family life.

Don't belive anything a flight instructor tells you about job opportunities. I should know I was a flight instructor and we are all a bunch of lying bastards that will tell you anything to get you signed up and flying. Lawyers and used car sales men are saints compared to flight instructors. I do 100 Hail Marry's every day as repentence. I still think about all those poor souls that I talked into flying so many years ago. The memories are haunting.

In all seriousness. Don't do it. Really . . .

[Daedalleus]

No . . . don't do it.

Get your private licence. Buy or rent a plane and enjoy your family life.

Don't belive anything a flight instructor tells you about job opportunities. I should know I was a flight instructor and we are all a bunch of lying bastards that will tell you anything to get you signed up and flying. Lawyers and used car sales men are saints compared to flight instructors. I do 100 Hail Marry's every day as repentence. I still think about all those poor souls that I talked into flying so many years ago. The memories are haunting.

In all seriousness. Don't do it. Really . . .

i've look in your past 100ish post on this forum and i didint find a lot of things comming from you that was positive, yet you still fly and make a living i guess?
you like to fly?

i hate my job atm... i would gladly take on that i like + a salary...
how much do you make and how long have you been flying?

why is it that im getting PM's from experienced pilot telling me their curriculum and encouraging me VS what you tell me?

[hairdo]

The only reason to start a career as a pilot is because you love flying~

That should be the only reason but there are still those (uninformed youngsters and Egotists) that enter for the gold braid, money and lifestyle

Sad, but true. They are also the ones who are rudely awakened to the fact that that they MIGHT get one of those items for their first jobs, and it ain't money or lifestyle...

There are PRO's and CON's to every job. If you want to fly, and can't imagine being happy at any other profession, then I would consider it. Otherwise, I don't think it would be a good idea to get into aviation for a career. If a prospective student ever asks me about getting into aviation I tell them that I enjoy it, BUT I also try to give them the best, no BS view of what it is (some of them you can see just blocking out what they don't want to hear. They tend to be the unhappy ones later). If you don't like what you hear now about aviation, then you won't like it when you hear everyone you work with whining about how crappy it is.

If you aren't sure, do what the other guys said, get an intro flight, and think about it. If you like flying, get your PPL and do some flying for fun, maybe get a night rating. Then think about it some more, because you are going to commit more than money to this profession if you start flying for hire. The good scheds, money and such won't come around until you have a lot of ink in your logbook (real stuff, not Parker Penned) unless you get lucky or know the right people.

[CSk3RampBOY]

Must you guys really be dream smashers! So many posts about how crappy the industry is, and little about where he should conduct his flight training. Give the guy a chance to discover what the industry is like.

They tend to be the unhappy ones later).

Oh really? Most of my fellow collegues never regretted going into aviation. Sure, not everybody is happy in this industry, but at least the guy has an idea of what to expect.
Many prospective students are completed clueless and keep asking if Air Canada will take them after their CPL. Of course they're in for a surprise!
On the other hand, Daedalleus plan is completely plausible and he's talking about going to Africa after the CPL. I've had many friends go over there and they have yet come back.
Even if he get's a CPL and decides that aviation is not for him. He becomes much more insurable if buys into his own airplane.

Just my 2cents

[Bobby868]

I'm not being negative I'm being realistic. You are not the typical 18-22 year old, no life, no wife, no kids, no other career guy.

A 20 something kid can give up everything (which is nothing) to compete with you for a job and the competition is fierce.

You have a family, kids, and a good wife and a taste of what a real career can pay and what it can do for your family and though you may think it’s easy to give that up and or put it on hold, when the time comes and you’re looking your daughter in the eyes to tell here you’re going to be gone for 6 months on a contract to a place where neither she nor her mother will be safe or welcome then you’ll get what I’m telling you.

Don’t fool yourself into thinking that hard work and a willingness to go wherever and do whatever will get you a job. Everyone that becomes a commercial pilot thinks the same thing so that doesn’t make you special at all.

Africa is flooded with European and some North American pilots right now. Go to the other forum PPrune and read their African Maun postings. 1 out of 30 guys are coming back even more broke than when they left, they’ve spent the last of the money they could borrow from friends and family and with no further flying experience whatsoever.

Northern Canada isn’t much better where your resume will be mixed in with 500 others for a job on a ramp that will have you working manual labour for two years in -40c conditions in the winter and bug infested holes in the summer before you even touch the controls of a plane.

But all my warnings and negativity(realisim) doesn’t matter. I can tell you’ve made up your mind already so you will believe the positive and ignore the cautions. **Keep in mind flight instructors don’t just recruit in the lobby of flight schools, they recruit here on Avcanada too.** So take those super positive private PMs that you get with a grain of salt and remember this: for all the negative and semi positive that you hear on this site and other flying sites you are hearing from pilots that are still holding out hope or that have made it after an unbelievable amount of sacrifice. What you don’t hear are all the pilots that gave up after working twice as hard and giving up twice as much as you are willing to give and they simply don’t participate and post in these forums at all.

Best of luck to you.