First Air - reduces Edmonton flights, adds YVQ

[Arctic84]

Could it be that First Air and Canadaian North had to cut back because they are poorly managed and lack the modern equipment to be competitive in the market? They charged what the market would bear. The market will no longer bear those fares.

I have no faith in your load numbers. None at all. Your base pay is not higher than WJ, unless it is more than the $172/hr top of scale at WJ ($175 after May 1).

If you can get a movable bulkhead (Alaska couldn't), why don't you? Allow me to answer "Because we shouldn't have to modernize or spend any money. We should just be allowed to operate without meaningful competition".

I actually feel sorry for you. I do. Having Tracy Medve complain in the paper is no substitute for innovative, progressive action.

[FICU]

Again, you go on with modernizing when to serve our customers we have to use what we are using now with exception of the east/west charter market where by were are modernizing. YEG-YZF requires a combi and the movable bulkhead is the most cost efficient combi there is... then don't forget that gravel issue again. You seem to think that we should be buying a -700 to run between YEG and YZF to be competitive... please think again.

BTW... do you know the cost of developing an STC that would allow for a fully sealed movable bulkhead?

What would Westjet's progressive and innovative solution be to run a modernized fleet into Alert, Cambridge Bay, an ice strip on Bathurst Inlet, and a few diamond mines north of YZF?

Trust me... the loads were counted daily and recorded.

[cdnpilot77]

For some reason everyone keeps putting WJ down because they offer "Walmart Fares". Does anybody realize that Walmart is one of the most profitable companies in the world year over year? If the company that I hold shares in wants to use their model, I say go for it. It's supposed to be a capitalist society isn't it? Or is that only when it's convenient? I also believe 5 of the Walmart primary shareholders are in the top 15 richest people in the world. How does that happen if what they do is such bad business....Interesting.

[Arctic84]

Well FICU, who counted the loads? Tracey? That would be tough from home in YYC.

I'm still trying to buy into $196/hr (or was it $270) to fly a 737-200. My congrats, given that is substantially more than an AC 767 or AT A330 Capt. gets at the top of their pay scale.

[FICU]

For some reason everyone keeps putting WJ down because they offer "Walmart Fares". Does anybody realize that Walmart is one of the most profitable companies in the world year over year? If the company that I hold shares in wants to use their model, I say go for it. It's supposed to be a capitalist society isn't it? Or is that only when it's convenient? I also believe 5 of the Walmart primary shareholders are in the top 15 richest people in the world. How does that happen if what they do is such bad business....Interesting.

Walmart also put countless Mom and Pop and other local small retail stores out of business and many, many people out of work. They also lowered the bar on working conditions and wages for their employees. Their shareholders got rich on the backs of the employees and by putting the smaller competition out of business. Something to be proud of but then again... it's a free market right.

I still support local business like ski shops rather than save a few bucks at Sport Chek or other big box stores.

[FICU]

Well FICU, who counted the loads? Tracey? That would be tough from home in YYC.

Airport staff counted the WJ pax inbound and outbound. Face it, it's a weak sector with low yield and most likely not profitable for you guys because more people fly on the northern airlines and AC. I'm guessing you think if you keep the fares at $49 it will put the northern airlines out of business or force them and AC to give up the YEG-YZF run for you to monopolize... sounds like Walmart to me! The fact is that thanks to other flying we have secured long term we can keep competing.

[Arctic84]

You will have to do better than your constant assertions about 40 passengers per flight and $49 fares. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

What really interests me is that you guys are paid $196 per hr. on the 200. Why did you modify that post? Making more than almost all wide body Capts. in Canada to fly the 200 is something to be proud of.

Can anyone here confirm that Canadian North is paying $196/hr. on the 200?

[Ace Cdn]

Well it's a known fact that airlines occasionaly monitor each others loads. When harmony was flying YYC-YVR Wesjet
always had someone there counting passengers as they boarded. From what I heard from people I know at the YEG and
YZF airports the loads on Westjet were quite low. How much that has changed in the last few months I don't know. As for the 200 vs the 700 debate for the type of flying and conditions you have in the north the 200 is best suited for the task. As much as a 700 would be nice it would not be able to meet the requirements of shipping freight and landing on a gravel strip.

[johnkruk]

Something thats going to be intresting to watch is the Iqaluit run, A/C has already started this one and no big deal, once WJ starts it I'm sure there will be an up-roar!!!!! Why is this? Is it there fault at being efficient at what they do? Its true the northern airlines never saw it coming, Firstair made a "big move" and got the full passenger aircraft, why didn't they try and modernize and go with something cheaper to operate? Lets face it, if WJ wants these runs all Canadian North and Firstair will be is a feeder to the settlements. Its good for everyone up north except the people working for these airlines, I've lived up north and its hard to be isolated, and it makes it worse having to pay outrageous fares to get back down to civilization. Good for Westjet to open it up a bit more and make it easier on these people trying to get south!

[Ace Cdn]

If Westjet does decide to fly to YFB they are going to have to go in the afternoon. Anyone who has been there knows
that the terminal is at capacity between 1200-1400 and no room for anyone else.

[185/310]

johnkruk, I dont think the people of the north are that thrilled AC is up in YFB, nor the thought of WJ coming. AC loads have been something to laugh about, nor were they that welcomed by the people when they showed up. I think for the most part the people realize that these airlines are coming to the north like they did in YZF and trying to take away there fathers, brothers and friends job. It costs money to have infrastructure in the north, thats why the ticket prices for First Air and Canadian North are what they are. However an airline like AC or WJ coming in can charge whatever they want to charge because there is no infrastructure cost. The loads for AC have been ranging from 10-20 a day inbound and outbound, while First Air and Canadian North loads have been 50-100. Most of those 10-20 people are aeroplan customers anyways, First Air and Canadian North are limited in the number of seats released per flight, and with restrictions. My point is I think in a way the people have already decided what airline they want, but that still wont make AC leave YFB. Soon WJ will be there as well, and then the pissing match between AC and WJ begins, and who gets hurt in the end? The northern airlines who are supplying jobs in the north.

[185/310]

If Westjet does decide to fly to YFB they are going to have to go in the afternoon. Anyone who has been there knows
that the terminal is at capacity between 1200-1400 and no room for anyone else.

The terminal capacity if my memory is correct is only 225 I believe. If you walk through the front doors and look up towards the ceiling on the right hand side the capacity is listed. So yes, the terminal is by far over capacity on a daily basis. I guess the fire inspector never drops by.

[luckheed]

Well IMHO WestJet is like McD's or WalMart. We all complain about them but we go there, spend our money there, they are everywhere and make lots of $$$'s! So who can argue with a great business like that. No matter how much the northern airlines complain whats done is done. The harsh reality is the dynamics of the business have changed and now its time to shape up or get out. Thats what happens when management is complacent!
Now looking on this thread it is heartwarming to see 5T/7F employees sticking together, if only your management could do the same they might have been able to do something about the southern airlines.
Layoffs suck and my condolences to those that are/were affected.
Maybe WestJet could hire them first as a token of reconciliation

Fly safe boys and girls!

[Dust Devil]

A benefit that the southern airlines and competition will bring is lowering the cost to do business in the north at the same time you will see more economic opportunities taking place. This spinoff is not just a northern issue but also happens in the south. More and more flights are coming into Regina all the time and has brought the cost of doing business here down dramatically. Southern airlines heading north is just the beginning and if it does work and things get busier and busier there should be infrastructure spending to open the north even more. Gravel ops should not be used as some sort of shield to keep others out. If the traffic will support it then in time those gravel runways should be extended and paved and Northerners should support it. Air traffic is a leading indicator of economic growth and should be embraced. Companies have to adapt to survive. That is true for all industries.

[stratcat]

Even the most famous Ice Pilot flew Westjet a while back.

[FICU]

You will have to do better than your constant assertions about 40 passengers per flight and $49 fares. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

What really interests me is that you guys are paid $196 per hr. on the 200. Why did you modify that post? Making more than almost all wide body Capts. in Canada to fly the 200 is something to be proud of.

I was in YZF today and your shiny -600 pulled up beside us and we watched the pax offload. On a Sunday, which is generally one of the busiest days of the week in YZF, I counted 51 pax. Looking at the fares from last week, I'd guess 30 were at $49 and the rest at $75. Sunday is a day we always fly a full seat aircraft out of YEG because we are usually over 100 pax.

I flew 20,000 pounds of freight and a bunch of pax out of YEG to YCB today so you can see why the -200 is still the most suitable aircraft for our operation. How would Westjet operate a modernized fleet to do the flight we did today?

I see the pay has really got you going. It was my mistake for posting anything to do with our pay.

BTW... a Captain, I'm guessing 4-5 year, of your fine airline posted his pay stub on the forum for all to see awhile back and it showed the rate at $146/hour. That's a big drop from $172 like you posted. Is $172 the year 25 pay rate?

[godsrcrazy]

You will have to do better than your constant assertions about 40 passengers per flight and $49 fares. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

What really interests me is that you guys are paid $196 per hr. on the 200. Why did you modify that post? Making more than almost all wide body Capts. in Canada to fly the 200 is something to be proud of.

I was in YZF today and your shiny -600 pulled up beside us while watched the pax offload. On a Sunday, which is generally one of the busiest days of the week in YZF, I counted 51 pax. Looking at the fares from last week, I'd guess 30 were at $49 and the rest at $75. Sunday is a day we always fly a full seat aircraft out of YEG because we are usually over 100 pax.

I flew 20,000 pounds of freight and a bunch of pax out of YEG to YCB today so you can see why the -200 is still the most suitable aircraft for our operation. How would Westjet operate a modernized fleet to do the flight we did today?

I see the pay has really got you going. It was my mistake for posting anything to do with our pay.

BTW... a Captain, I'm guessing 4-5 year, of your fine airline posted his pay stub on the forum for all to see awhile back and it showed the rate at $146/hour. That's a big drop from $172 like you posted. Is $172 the year 25 pay rate?

If you guys are flying that many pax and freight then tell your boss's to quit pi$$ing and moaning about Westjet.

[FICU]

If you guys are flying that many pax and freight then tell your boss's to quit pi$$ing and moaning about Westjet.

I guess you just don't understand... for us it's not about the number of pax it's the cost of the ticket and we are competing with Westjet's $49 fares. We could fill 200 seats and still have trouble. Our costs are substantially higher then Westjet's because we are a northern airline and everything costs substantially more in the north from fuel, equipment, infrastructure, to the salaries and benefits of all employees.

For those that think hurting the northern airlines is a good thing for everyone by making it cheaper to fly south think of all the beneficial shareholders, Mom's, Pops. and kids living all over the north who prosper from healthy and profitable northern airlines.

[johnkruk]

Maybe Westjet is going to see the new oppurtunity and start doing a flight in the morning and one in the evening which would improve loads , as now they just go there at 1100 at back at 1300. With a decent time slot theres no reason loads wouldn't increase drastically, especially when they might be the only one to take! Or maybe people REALLY like those meals the northern airlines serve...............

[godsrcrazy]

FICU So if i am getting what you are saying is that the 200 is he best all around aircraft for the Job. Not the most cost effective. So you think people in Yellowknife and Iqualit should pay the price so all the other communities can get Jet service.
Are the people in Yellowknife also suppose to have their power, groceries and fuel cost increase in order to help subsidize the costs for the communities further north.

[Arctic84]

If you guys are flying that many pax and freight then tell your boss's to quit pi$$ing and moaning about Westjet.

I guess you just don't understand... for us it's not about the number of pax it's the cost of the ticket and we are competing with Westjet's $49 fares. We could fill 200 seats and still have trouble. Our costs are substantially higher then Westjet's because we are a northern airline and everything costs substantially more in the north from fuel, equipment, infrastructure, to the salaries and benefits of all employees.

For those that think hurting the northern airlines is a good thing for everyone by making it cheaper to fly south think of all the beneficial shareholders, Mom's, Pops. and kids living all over the north who prosper from healthy and profitable northern airlines.

Actually, your costs are substantially higher because your airplane burns 6500lbs/hr instead of 4200/hr like the nice shiny 600. WJ retired the 200 years early because the cost of maintaing the airframe was more than the cost of owing a brand new airplane from Boeing. Such was the difference that it was actually better to give some of them away than to keep operating them. Being the airline expert you are, I'm sure the economics of new vs. obsolete equipment are obvious to you.

I looked for your $49 fares. Can't find 'em. If you travel YEG to YZF tomorrow, it's $269. If you can wait till the next day, it's only $185. That's the lowest price all week. I did find a couple of days a month out with fares of $99, but only a couple of days at that price. Given that YEG to YZF is about the same flight time as YYC to YVR, those seem like reasonable fares.

The pay scale at WJ is on airlinepilotcentral.com for anyone to see. As are AC, TS etc. Not so for Canadian North. Your $196/hr is more than a 767 Capt at AC. Heck it's near what a 787 Capt. will make. If the number you posted is accurate, then good on ya.

[5dayer]

Hey FICU,if you know so much why are you not in charge?

[balfour]

Man, I love working for WestJet.

[5dayer]

me too

[sstocker31]

It's quite clear that most of the posters here have no concept of northern flying, or operating in the north.......nuff said