How do you know which SID, STAR, Runway you gonna get??

[damfou]

Hello,
I usually fly up north and the arctic but I recently went to Toronto and despite having 15kts winds straight for the 33s, the ATC was landing everyone on the 05 and 06s.
So basically, I thought all the traffic was directed towards the 33s because of the wind direction but I got informed on initial contact with approach that my runway was going to be 05, which made me change my IFR setup, my STAR setup in the GPS and I also had to quickly review the approach breifing.
So I am just wondering if you know a better way to know which runway, STAR or SID I will receive before the ATC tells me.
Thanks!

PS: Is it normal at CYYZ to not mention the runway in use in the ATIS or I just missed that part?

[bcflyer]

I've never seen them not mention the runways in use.. They often change which of the runways in use you will be landing on but they are always mentioned.. I'm not an expert in the ATC flow pattern at YYZ but I do know that when they switch to the 33's things slow down ALOT! You can expect to take a pretty good crosswind before they begin using the north south runways.

[mattedfred]

what was being advertised on the ATIS?

[damfou]

You are right, I remember the ATIS told me the 2 runways in use at the time : 05 and 06L.
And the rest of the ATIS said something like wind 330 at 14kts, +5SM, sky clear, A2985, ILS 05 and ILS 06L, high intensity traffic so no delay to exit runways, bird activity...

So is there a way to know which runway I will land before the approach controller tells me?
Another similar question, is there a way to know which SID I will have before the clearance delivery?

The purpose of my questions is to find a more efficient way to do an IFR setup as early as possible in order to avoid last minute work load.
Mostly for the future days when the weather won't be VFR...

Thanks for your replies!

[WetJet]

Arriving from the north, it will normally be 05/23. If you don't want to worry about a STAR, file Mansfield VOR or Simcoe VOR, YYZ, CYYZ and they will vector you in once you get 8-10 NM from the airport.

If you are departing to the north, it will normally be Lester 7, off of 05/23.

Notice my use of the word "normally". The winds have to be howling from 330 to use the 33s or a really slow day. And Toronto reserves the right to change their mind any time they please.

[AuxBatOn]

This is when you pipe up on the radio and say "Unable, request vectors"

[sissyphus]

I believe there's a flow issue using the 33's. Something about encroaching on US airspace over the lake. As per the departure procedure, wait until you get it. After several years of getting the Lester 7 off of 23, they bust out the Windy 1. Why and when do they choose the W1 over the L7, I have no idea. I've experienced about 75% Lester 7 and 25% Windy 1.

off topic.... Any one know the reason for FLINE at 10??

[whipline]

Depends which direction you are going after takeoff. If you are heading west or north then its the north runway, south and east then its the south runway.

Runway 33L and 33R were built to close together to allow for parallel runway operations, ie using both independant at the same time. Thats why they don't like using them. On a dry surface the winds have to be above a 24 crosswind to switch to the 33's.

[flying4dollars]

So I am just wondering if you know a better way to know which runway, STAR or SID I will receive before the ATC tells me.
Thanks!

Sure, ask center

[Pratt]

I believe there's a flow issue using the 33's. Something about encroaching on US airspace over the lake. As per the departure procedure, wait until you get it. After several years of getting the Lester 7 off of 23, they bust out the Windy 1. Why and when do they choose the W1 over the L7, I have no idea. I've experienced about 75% Lester 7 and 25% Windy 1.

off topic.... Any one know the reason for FLINE at 10??

I always assumed it was for getting the arrivals down for the departures climb.

[Intentional Left Bank]

After several years of getting the Lester 7 off of 23, they bust out the Windy 1. Why and when do they choose the W1 over the L7, I have no idea. I've experienced about 75% Lester 7 and 25% Windy 1.

off topic.... Any one know the reason for FLINE at 10??

Windy 1 appears to appropriately named. In my experience, whenever a northerly wind of a certain strength is blowing and 23 is active, the Windy 1 is used to prevent departing traffic from drifting toward the 24s. Prior to the implementation of the Windy1, tower when issuing takeoff clearance under the previously mentioned conditions would instruct the procedure now named Windy1. Windy1 reduces radio chatter. Note that the preceding is pure speculation on my part.

The FLINE at 10 and is a two month experiment to reduce level segments on arrival, according to a controller I queried a few months ago. It appears to be working well, in my opinion.

[chinglish]

Sure, ask center [/quote]
+1 most of the time centre tells you what to expect before you ever get cleared on it. At some of the busier airports in North America the runway and STAR have been known to change multiple times before you actually land. You can try and plan all you want but sometimes it is just going to be a surprise a couple of miles back...
SID's are pretty straight forward don't plan on anything until you talk to clearance.

[GQ4]

33L and 33R do not have the lateral separation requirement for simultaneous approaches, so it slows things down. I believe the CFS says that they will not switch to those runways until a 25 knot crosswind is present on the 6's/24's.

[flyinhigh]

Hey,

coming into YYZ or out of YYZ, you Will NOT get the 33's or 15's unless the steady state wind is more than 20knts. meaning and yes I've had it 15knts gusting 30knts. means landing 5/23 or 6/24.

as for the planning, simpliest way, don't set up. It happens often when we'll be set up for something and they change it within 30 miles. Mind you over the last year or 2 it has got much better as to what you can expect.

Also if you are in a rush, you will probably not get what you want to make it quicker. ie. running late/ trying to catch your commuting flight

[mduffy]

I once heard a US Carrier flat out refuse a clearance for the 24's, and request 33 L/R, due to the 20 kt cross wind. The controller offered him a clearance to his alternate, and that was the end of it.

[yycflyguy]

How is the Air France lawsuit against the GTAA and the controllers involved going? I guess nothing was learned.

[Sean YOW]

CYYZ airport's capacity is increased when running parallell ops on the east west runways. North south ops normally only happen when the crosswinds are too strong to permit legal operations on the 24s/06s. The reason the 33s and 15s aren't used is strictly due to flow rate.

A late runway change (05 to 06L)can occur for any number of reasons including bird strikes/fod, higher than anticipated volume on the initial runway (an overshoot goes around and takes up an arrival spot or a departure off of a nearby airport landing CYYZ). Also a departure rush off 06L would require controllers to move inbound traffic to 05.