Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

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iflyforpie
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by iflyforpie »

Jack Klumpus wrote:Too much for me to read, but has anyone ever been in a cockpit where the other pilot got incapacitated?

I've done Single pilot multi IFR, I've done two crew, I've done the airlines, and I've seen lots.

Two crew all the way. Anyone who says different has never had the guy/girl beside them pass away during flight.
There was a story a few months ago about a captain of an airliner dying and the F/O landing the plane.


Reminds me of a true (but probably embellished) story of a Braniff 747 captain who passed away during a flight and the first officer was required to land it.

After the plane was landed, the captains and first officers started to congregate in separate huddles in the flight ops office.

The captains were talking amongst themselves, wondering how a lowly first officer was able to land that big jet all by himself.

The first officers were talking amongst themselves, wondering how the first officer in question was able to tell that his captain was dead... :D
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by Jack Klumpus »

F/O's can land an airplane? Surely it's a fake story.
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by Meatservo »

That's a funny story, PIE. Thanks. It made me laugh. :lol:
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lionheart27
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by lionheart27 »

I guess that was in the days of "The Captain is God" scenario.
This is more reason to have the co-pilot.
A Captain may be more experienced and his skills far outway the co-pilots but guess who the co-pilot learns from.
If a co-pilot is instructed properly and is always there watching the Captains moves he can perform the same procedures and land a plane just as well in time. Procedures and checks are done by two to cross check.
As with some posts we got into previous flights that had gone wrong as the Tenerife disaster being the most relevant as within events of an incapacitation. (A Captain falls ill or dies in flight)
Were getting into a larger plane standard here which maybe separates it into class and rating type of A/C so this might be reason to follow CAR's. I think A320/B737 class and above is self-explanatory.
Then we get into the Regional-Commuter class. 19 passengers = 2 pilots period/ 20+ 2 pilot + 1 flt attendant
If a passenger becomes ill or the situation warrants it somebody has to tend to it. Then the 2 pilot scenario fall into one of safety again, but still based on the checklist system. You have passengers on board. Insurance Liability! Turbine class!
Then we have commuter/charter class.
Small Jet/Medium Twin/High performance single. Passengers/ Medevac is still a liability issue. I think the magic number here is nine? Some operators fill the 10th seat which end up being the co-pilot seat. I believe this practice to be wrong if not illegal. There will be arguments of W&B issues or costs.
Also if the A/C is a Reciprocating vs a Turbine.
An incident occurred on a Air Taxi(maybe you can guess) where a co-pilot stepped out of his seat to give it to a passenger that eventually led to an accident. Was it the PIC's fault/ The Co-Pilot? Does it matter?
A lot or resort flying uses the co-pilot seat for flying a passenger. With a proper briefing all should go well.
A well trained pilot may be the answer but it leaves a shadow of doubt to the passenger inadvertently touching something. "A big Luis Vutton purse becomes a huge weapon in the cockpit" :shock:
Finally a small twin and single where the nature of the "busyness", few passengers, length of flight and insurance liability become less, a single pilot with enough hrs on type becomes reliable and the responsibility of the operator to determine as long as he's not breaking any laws.

A pilot on a forum I read yesterday had been hired by a regional carrier that flies Turbo-Props. I can't say which or it will give it away. The Co-pilot didn't know what his conditioning lever was for. He flew King Airs previously and was familiar I guess with the Conditioning lever and prop governor control lever. He mentioned his Captain did not explain it properly or didn't have time and mentioned he just sits there and acts like a dummy while the Captain flies the plane.
WTF?
1) Not enough Ground School and SIM time?
2) Two Pilot flying? Why does this breakdown occur?
3) Airline cutting costs? PPC? PCC?
Why is this happening in our industry.
I read that another pilot was not able to indentify what a A320 looks like. :rolleyes:
Good thing he's not in the military!
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by North Shore »

I read that another pilot was not able to indentify what a A320 looks like.
How is this a litmus test for being a competent pilot? I'm sure that more than a few of us on here couldn't tell the difference between a 319, 320 and 321 or 767 and 310 - nor do we particularly care...

ETA: On the topic: Yes - for many of the reasons discussed in the preceding 3 pages.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by iflyforpie »

lionheart27 wrote: The Co-pilot didn't know what his conditioning lever was for. He flew King Airs previously and was familiar I guess with the Conditioning lever and prop governor control lever. He mentioned his Captain did not explain it properly or didn't have time and mentioned he just sits there and acts like a dummy while the Captain flies the plane.
Is that for the air conditioning, or were you referring to the condition levers? :mrgreen:
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ETOPS
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by ETOPS »

North Shore wrote: I'm sure that more than a few of us on here couldn't tell the difference between a 319, 320 and 321 or 767 and 310 - nor do we particularly care...
I (someone who spends about 1h/day on airliners.net) agree that having all your airliners memorized isn't paramount.
But still, something like this does have the potential to cause a serious Air China moment...
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by lionheart27 »

iflyforpie wrote:
lionheart27 wrote: The Co-pilot didn't know what his conditioning lever was for. He flew King Airs previously and was familiar I guess with the Conditioning lever and prop governor control lever. He mentioned his Captain did not explain it properly or didn't have time and mentioned he just sits there and acts like a dummy while the Captain flies the plane.
Is that for the air conditioning, or were you referring to the condition levers? :mrgreen:
Yeah Hair Conditioner. I wanna look my best in the cockpit

Basically 3 settings Wash Rinse Spin haha

Fuel Cutoff/ Ground Idle/ Flight Idle. Guess which one is used where?
or Air Start/Run/Ground Stop/Feather
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by cdnpilot77 »

It would have been tough for this guy to land the plane himself...87 Lives saved because there was a co-joe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A20460782

With the heroic actions of the crew, and the extraordinary flying skills of the co-pilot, the flight recorded only one serious injury - that of Captain Lancaster who suffered a broken right arm and wrist, a broken left thumb, bruising, frostbite and shock.
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by lionheart27 »

[/quote]
cdnpilot77 wrote:It would have been tough for this guy to land the plane himself...87 Lives saved because there was a co-joe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A20460782

With the heroic actions of the crew, and the extraordinary flying skills of the co-pilot, the flight recorded only one serious injury - that of Captain Lancaster who suffered a broken right arm and wrist, a broken left thumb, bruising, frostbite and shock.
Yeah that was quite something. Its amazing how even the pilot survived at -50 or worse plus the forces upon him.
That's a perfect example of a crew coming together in a crisis and making it happen. Co-pilot was on his own as far as flying the plane and had to make all the decisions. He was now officially PIC.
Unfamiliar with Southampton and concerned about length, A/C weight and 84 passengers lives became his puzzle to solve. Smart he choose vectors to runway in sight with airspace cleared.
The ultimate test of pilot skills, strong crew and dedicated to the task.
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Invertago
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by Invertago »

Holy crap, the Co-Joe landed? They can do that?
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by jet a1 »

the answer to the question is yes. you take away the 2 crew environment you will only make bad captains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxGeo0ec-F4
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by tripleseven »

The other thing is that Canada was a little prehistoric when it came to visibility mins. Everywhere else, you needed the vis/RVR to be the same or better to what is published on the plate for your approach catergory. When I think about it, its a little crazy to be shooting an ILS to a Cat 1 runway, with 1200 RVR. In my opinion, this caused a mentality from everyone to "just go down and have a look". And once you are down there, you just keep going a bit lower, a bit lower, etc, you get the point. Also, ATC might do you a favor by giving you the current RVR once you are inside the beacon. Now what I think happened next was that everyone was under the impression that the only ones offending the most were the 703 and 704 operators. But then there were a couple of relatively high profile jets that cocked up a couple of low vis ILS's and now the rules have changed. Still, TC seems more apt to violate you for taxing rather than landing in crumby weather. Go figure. Just make it like the rest of the world. It would be easier.
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by flying4dollars »

No airplane is ever single pilot. There are always plenty of backseat pilots in the passenger cabin to tell you how to fly the airplane anyways :rolleyes:
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Re: Do We REALLY NEED Two Pilots In ANY Airplane??

Post by volare »

In the case of a 703 operator on an aircraft such as a C208, PC-12 or PA-31, a two crew environment is a great way to increase safety and help lower time pilots gain experience, if the copilot is actually trained and treated as a functioning crew member. I have seen companies that treat their FOs as a sandbag to fill the seat for insurance purposes, or to be there so that the captain doesn't have to do the paperwork, but don't let them fly very much. I don't see the point of two crew in that situation, because you have some poor low time pilot who is "qualified" to fly the airplane, but isn't actually gaining any experience at the flight controls.
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