My letter to TC - ATPL injustice

[Sulako]

I am unable to sympathize. I made my career choices in an effort to log multi PIC as soon as I possibly could, and you could have done the same thing. PIC is a completely different animal than SIC, and imho the 250 hour PIC requirement for an ATPL should be at least double that.

[bush_rat]

Most excellent job of flaming -- but seriously, get the experience, there is a good reason for it. I personaly think it should be higher.

There is no mythical quality to being a captain ( yah great, I've violated the secret code and let the cat out of the bag ) but as previously stated " the buck stops with you " and you need the experience to back that up.

Rather than trying to change the rules ( by the way, good luck with that ), why not just try following the existing one as previously mensioned - its call "pic under supervision", and you may very well have had that licience by now.

Now if you want to try and change something how about that 100 hrs night xc for all the float drivers - apperently they don't like you to log night time on floats - go figure. I remember when I got my logbook check over by TC for my ATPL, the inspecter commented that I had just enough night time - to which I replied I had lots more but didn't think I should log it on floats. A breif pause later he laughed and signed me off.

Parting note - GET THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cheers

[Check Pilot]

I posted this quite a while ago, but it seems to bear repeating. Sorry about the long post but it sums up my life experience and observations in my 40 years in aviation.


At first a lot of new aspiring pilots, like most normal folk, look to take the path to the top that has least resistance. It should just be a matter of getting that Licence and the time.

Simple, isn’t it?

After all, flying is fun.

Just like every other technical profession, including aviation, that point of view does not cut it. (it ain’t fun). At first, it seems like a cruel lesson, but it’s one that must be learned as quickly as possible.

Life is not fair.

Can you make a living at it though?

Especially in aviation.-

It’s best to get over that part as soon as possible. Accept it and get on with things.

The real truth is that it takes a depth of experience to really succeed and feel totally comfortable with aircraft operations. Trying to short circuit the process will lead you to trouble, sometimes years later down the road.

I understand the desire to start fuselage hugging as soon as possible. Don’t get me wrong though. It’s not wrong to do that. Most aspiring new pilots must do it or they wouldn’t be there in the first place, since that really is part of a pilot's psyche.

It gets really frustrating though and here’s why:

After that nice multi-engine Commercial Licence is safely in your pocket, the nice shiny old twin on the ramp starts to look a bit small after a couple of veeeery costly trips down south with the buddies.

Expensive too.

The frustration sets in when there are no jobs out there that want you with that nice newly printed Commercial, multi-engine Licence in the pocket. Nobody can help with a prospect of an employer. Employment people take your information but inform you that there are no jobs listed anywhere in the country.

None.

Except some outfit in the Middle East looking for B767 pilots - totally out of the question). You know that can’t be right though. One guy you know that got his Licence just about a year ago just got a super job as co-pilot on an IFR Navajo operation. But, sure enough, the more you look, few Companies are advertising for good pilot jobs. That is a major let down. Resumes and telephone calls go no where, so the next step seems to be an Instrument Rating to make things a bit more “saleable”. Another two thousand bucks later you get one.

Finally, a job on the dock in La Ronge, Saskatchewan, shows up on an obscure web site, with a possibility of a flying “opportunity” the next fall. Better than nothing. Sure enough, you get hired to load freight, fuel, tourists, beer, food, and fishermen.

Life is good. You spend another thousand bucks and get a “float” rating on a couple of days off.

The Chief Pilot does your last hour and signs your recommend form. You get your Licence a week later. Obviously, you are now a float “Ace” since the Chief Pilot signed you off. You must have an “in” with the Company now.

Your girlfriend shows up for a nice visit too, but has to go after three days, leaving behind your nice (wrinkled) white shirt with the now tarnished epaulettes. Just before she goes, she tells you she has a new job 2500 miles east from her home and now will be in Toronto, but doesn’t know a new address or phone number yet.

You spend the long cooold winter loading freight at the skiplane Base and then get moved to the AIRPORT in March. Finally there is something on wheels that you can relate to as a pilot, and that has some instruments to go “IFR” with and the guys that fly them. You get to talk, mostly briefly, with these old pilots in the Company lounge about the exciting trips to places like Cree Lake, Stony Rapids and Uranium City. Some of the aeroplanes even have GPS’s that functions most of the time. They do have lots of experience in the last couple of years that’s worth listening to and look more than 23 years old to you. They do seem to argue with each other though. One night they even invite you to the bar for a few “Brown Pops”. You notice they seem to be able to down a beer at a frightening rate that night and don’t seem to talk to anyone but one on one with each other. One 35 year old pilot talks to you a lot though, and then drops you off at home later.

At this point things go one of two ways.

You have made it with the Chief Pilot or you haven’t.

***************************************************************************************

You stay around the dock for a while or you go on to something else, because either Mom, Dad, the Bank or somebody else needs some return on their “investment”.

***************************************************************************************

Pilots naturally get frustrated when they perceive others "using" the system to get ahead and wind up getting that nice B1900 job in Saskatoon, in the right seat when they have been sitting in the right hand seat of a Navajo for 200 hours and two months down the road from getting hired. That new B1900 person can now (for a few months, at least) carry around that good old perceived ego on the shoulder and let other, former, co-workers know that "he's got it together”, and “how great things are."

All I can say to that is "wow".

I’ve noticed, however, that just about every new guy starts telling me that it ends pretty quickly when the routine starts to set in.

Pretty soon, the only thing that is routine is the boredom of being a sked pilot in a “simple” aeroplane. That seemingly complex piece of mysterious engineering magnificence is no longer a rewarding experience to fly, but becomes only a means to getting those miles or hours to pay the bills at home with the new wife. Not only that, but something always seems busted on the damn thing anyway. The owners won’t fix it because “it’s too expensive right now”, and “you probably don’t need it anyway today”. MEL’s always seem to make the trip go ahead anyway.

So what’s next?

Away we go again, looking for that bigger and better, perfect fuselage that always works right, with that new and “better” company, and the challenges of a newer, nicer and “better” aeroplane.

What a beautiful fuselage the CRJ has doesn’t it?......
Then you find out that it too has an MEL. Sitting there you can see the little stickers telling you that, for example, “THE APU is unserviceable”.

Very helpful in Yellowknife at -35.!!, isn’t it?

Don’t get me wrong though,

Pilot’s are always looking for a challenge or they would have never made it as a pilot in the first place. Maybe that’s one of the reasons so many pilots get new wives so often. I can speak from experience. I was no different than anyone else out there. I’m married again, though. This time permanently. I eventually settled down and started making a living for my own lifestyle. It took about 15 years to get life in order.

However,

Those of you new to the business, always tell me that you learned a lot from that senior, grizzled old guy with the bad attitude, in the left seat. A year later that same, used to be, new guy, is the senior, grizzled old guy with the bad attitude in the left seat.

That’s now you.

How much did you, the new guy, really learn that first tour of duty in the right seat? How much of that command decision making REALLY got learned properly?

In my opinion, not much - I know though. I’ve seen it all before.

Particularly with simulators.

New guys ALWAYS tell me it’s better, from the right seat, to observe the senior pilots making the decisions, since for some reason, unbeknownst to me, they think they’ve now gained that power of the almighty from those observations. A simulator almost always proves a pilot to be a human being.

Sure guys learn from others by watching, observing, doing and sometimes getting yelled at too. That’s how life, even outside aviation, is anyway. We learn from experience and interaction with other people.

How much really got absorbed as a potential aircraft Commander however?

Here’s the ONLY important point of all this that will either continue or end your career in aviation.

Aircraft, regardless of size still conform to the laws of physics. Little ones or big ones - take your pick, air is still air and big planes and little ones still fly in air. Little ones make a little bit of lift and big ones like B777’s and A380’s still obey the same rules of flying through the air and make a big bunch of lift.

HOWEVER!!!

What changes with size are the rules.

If anyone hasn't noticed, you can go out by yourself and get killed in a little aeroplane and only the local media makes much mention of it. Kill 9 folks and it's still just air taxi. Mere news on page 1 or 2 of the local major newspaper and a word or two on the suppertime local TV news. That’s the end of it. Except for the families. They have a lifetime of loss. Commuter however, with up to 19 on board, will get national attention and maybe a public inquiry headed up by some famous notary(ity) public lawyer. Crash an airliner and the whole world knows right away. Anyone care to be the centre of that kind of attention?

From a physics point of view, what is the difference that size makes? - - None!

So let’s get down to brass tacks here.

What DOES make a difference though, and what does make Operators pay attention to those seemingly stupid little things like your depth of experience and command decision-making is really two things. Media coverage and insurance. Commercial owners and/or Operators don’t want either one of those two going up. - Particularly when someone smashes up one of their planes. And both of those will go up if you crash their aeroplane. Those two facts will either make it or break it for you as a pilot. You have to prove you have the ability to avoid both of those issues or you are out of the picture. You better prove in spades that you have the ability and won’t get any – and I say again - any kind of attention.

Which means you better be a good and cautious pilot.

You satisfy both and you have a job. Probably for life, if you want.

So Ya carry on.

By the time you sit in the left seat you know that, not by simple mindless knowledge, but all that stuff you’ve learned, is now instinctive.

I can only hope (and it better be) it’s part of your life by the time you get in that Command seat.

That’s why operators seem so damn picky when they are looking for pilots to hire.

It ain’t you.

Yet.

It’s those two things that qualify you or not. Will you keep a low profile with the media and insurance company or not? Is there a chance you will crash the plane? If you are experienced and/or qualified and show you have slim, to no, chance of creating a media or insurance “preventable event” you get the job. If you can’t prove that to the operator - forget it.

That’s where the experience and command time is so ultimately important. Most good operators can sense it somehow. Trying to BS an operator is kind of like tricking a TC Inspector into flying a powered parachute. It just ain’t gonna happen. (Now, before you get me wrong, some poor TC buggers do get ORDERED to go out and do that, but not without protests. They usually request transfers to a different branch right away after that however). (If they don’t, their peers razz them mercilessly).

If, for some reason, you make a mistake with a big aeroplane later in life and take out 100 people with you, and you had not gone through the proper “apprenticeship” period making decisions the right way in the past, you can guarantee yourself a place in(famous) history, unless you have an extremely lucky angel sitting on your shoulder.

Crash a big aeroplane and the uneducated public will know every single detail of your life, right down to whether or not your mother breast-fed you when you were young. ---RIGHT away. --Within minutes or hours, with no holds barred. You, if you live, will get media surrounding you like gold diggers circling a new millionaire.

What are you going to say? My mother died in childbirth? My upbringing was abnormal? My father beat me all the time? My wife is a lesbian? What? How about “I was just a normal kid”? Just what can you say?

Most of us know about the seemingly “stupid” mistakes that other guys have made. They get publicized very widely in our circle of folks.

Every active Canadian pilot gets the Aviation Safety Letter and I’ll bet when some folks read about the “accident of the month”, are sure that the command decision that the poor bugger made and then got written about, would never happen to them. I’ll just bet that most of those that did make the “wrong” decision read the Letter too. Did they make those “mistakes” on purpose? 99.99999% of the time, - no. (There have been those that just had to get even though. That accounts for the .000001% that did do it on purpose. For those, I have no cure or answer. They’re just nuts).

I also know that many of us have heard the A.T.C. tapes and have seen the C.V.R. stuff from the major crashes. Just remember that you might be a voice on one of those some day. Even “little” aeroplanes like BE-100’s might have them. Bigger stuff even records the mistakes you make with the aeroplane while you handle it on the Flight Data Recorder.

This entire dissertation is really meant to say to you young, new freshly scrubbed faces in aviation - - Don’t try to short circuit the command time on the basic machines. You really do need it, even if right now, you see that shiny new fuselage sitting there inviting you to go along and get those “invaluable and “priceless hours”.

Later on you won’t regret getting those instructor or bush times and you will discover the really and truly priceless days that I still think were the best time of my life. I learned about Commanding an aircraft from those days. True Command!

Experience as a Pilot-in-Command on your own, leads to maturity that is NOT obtainable any other way. There is just no simple way of doing it while you become a professional in the aviation business of driving that aluminum tube around the sky. It takes time. Time - in terms of calendar time - not only hours in the air. I wish there was another way you could learn the stuff that’s needed to become a true professional. I wish that I could give all of you the benefit of my experience and knowledge by osmosis somehow. Right now, there isn’t a way to do that. Until evolution changes the way we all learn, it ain’t gonna change.

It’s up to you to get the time. On your own! I think most of you can do that.

Please don’t be lured by the “fast track”. You really must, on your own, get that command time on your own, and go the “old” way to really be able to happily retire (I know, that’s the last thing on your mind right now, but) without becoming a part of world wide (infamous) aviation history.

And finally:

Everything in the company manual - policy, warnings, instructions, the works - can be summed up to read, ‘Captain it’s your baby.’

Signed:
An old, now retired, TC Inspector pilot.

[double-j]

Bravo! excellent post!

[aerodude]

Talk about harsh reply boys and girls! Delta hotel does have a point though. I undertand PIC in the bush or northern ops' will give you the irreplaceable experience in life. But how does a instructor (no offence to any intructors, just comparing) with 4-500 hours PIC on a cessna 152 become more qualified regarding an atpl (i said ATPL not PIC on an aircraft) compared to someone who flew thousands of hours on a twin otter and dash-8 in the north as first officer and is now ready to upgrade, according to their training captains, but can't because he/she is missing 25 hours PIC that they need to acquire the ATPL. (125 hrs PIC from flight school + 100 hours from PIC under supervision from your current airline = 25 hours remaining PIC to get somehow)
It is a rare problem that I see sometimes with some pilots but perhaps we should not look at the quantity of hours but perhaps the quality of the hours.

[Check Pilot]

aerodude states that it's about the quality of the hours and then goes on to mention that c-152 time seems to be somehow less valuable than FO time on a larger more complex aircraft.

Let me opine that it's not the platform that is being flown (regardless of the size), but the fact that the Captain is responsible for the decision making processes that occur during flight. From my experience, it is certainly not what is being flown, but the fact that there is that ultimate decision making authority incumbent on the Captain.

Regulations worldwide make the Captain the person ultimately responsible for the operation of the aircraft, regardless of type or size. NOT the second-in-command.

That experience can only be found by being assigned as the Pilot-in-Command.

It does not matter whether it's a powered parachute or the space shuttle, the PIC still has the responsibility and ultimately the authority to make the necessary decisions to keep everyone safe.

[Chaxterium]

I too believe that the PIC requirement is non-negotiable but what really bothers me about the requirements is the fact that F/O time is worth only half. For example I currently meet all the requirements for the ATPL - every single one of them - except the total time. I have just under 1700hrs with almost 500 PIC and all my night and IFR time but 1000 hours of my total time was spend right seat in the Twin Otter and the Dash so that means that as far as my ATPL is concerned I only have 1200 hours that I can apply towards it. This means that I'm still 300 hours away from my ATPL which actually becomes 600 hours since I'm still in the right seat.

Now I completely understand that as the FO you're not the one making the tough decisions but that's the whole reason that there is the 250 hour PIC requirement for the ATPL. It makes no sense to me that an instructor with 1500 hours in the a 172 is more qualified for an ATPL than someone who has spent two years or whatever as a FO in a 705 operation. Just to be clear I'm not trying to say that an instructor is less qualified; instructing time is very valuable, but at the end of the day you can't tell me that instructing is more applicable than acting as an FO in airline ops (after all is it an AIRLINE Transport Pilot Licence). I've never understood the reasoning behind this. If I fly 5 hours in the Dash I only get to apply 2.5 towards my ATPL but if I go and rent a 152 for 2.5 hours and never leave the circuit I get to count 2.5 towards it. How is doing circuits in a 152 more valuable than acting a pilot in airline ops?

Anyway, I guess that's my rant.

Cheers!

[altiplano]

-

[Chaxterium]

Valid point.

[TAT]

Hey delta hotel cant you simply get the PIC requirement from PIC under supervision??? Your company needs to be approved for it but i know others have worked that angle?

[DeltaHotel]

I wasnt gonna say anything, but aerodude hit the nail on the head.

I agree with those of you who say that PIC is PIC and the type and complexity of the aircraft you're flying doesn't matter, weather it is a C152 or a Saab340.

Where there is a huge difference is with the TYPE OF OPERATION! I do not believe instructing prepares you for the real world. And I'm sorry but the fact is that the ''decisions'' that an instructor is gonna have to make have nothing to do with the decisions that the PIC on a sked up north or in the bush is gonna have to make. A lot of great instructors out there and I have a lot of respect for 'em, but the fact that they earn time towards the ATPL and the FOs flying skeds with actual passengers don't is just BS. PIC or not !

As the FOs on those skeds get more comfortable and more competent with the OPERATION, the Captains (the real teachers) will involve them with the decision making part of it all, as they should. This is key to good CRM btw !

I see something I don't like so I wrote an email to TC. Maybe that makes me a cry baby or an annoying winer, but at least I put my money where my mouth is and actually did something about it. Weather it works or not is not the question, and besides, can you blame a guy for trying to regain a bit of control over his own career ?!

I wasn't gonna be so blunt about it but I am not one to take a beating and go silent. I think there are a lot of typical Captains here that regard their FOs as ''people who haven't paid their dues yet'' .... nothing I can do about that except hope we dont fly together anytime soon!

------

Yes TAT I have, the company I currently work for is not approved for PIC Under supervision. My previous employer was but your Supervised time has to be logged within 12 months of your ATPL request. Im stuck with a frozen ATPL for now

[altiplano]

-

[It_doesnt_matter]

500 multi pic, what about PC 12 time
compared to a king air say??
Thats what I dont like about the ATPL requirements, the need to have a valid group 1, so you go rent a navajo and have to drop extra cash to do a group 1 ride, I personally dont see the benifit of it.

[Nark]

Here is an example where an instructor makes the same choice as the northern sched captain:

Weather.

Do you take your student out into a 15 knot crosswind? (I know I can handle it, but he can't right now) It's up to me as the CFI to make that decision for the both of us.

While I have a whopping 60 hours of instructing time, I was the final stop on everything that plane did. You as the FO have an input, but you do not make the decision. I'm sorry to let you know.

I have to agree 250 hours is not enough PIC time. Here in the US it's 500, but we can log PIC a little differently.

[Castorero]

Very good discussion.

Check Pilot's post should be bronzed.

I will add to this thread that, whenever you are sitting in the left seat, your freshly shaved testicles are neatly laid out there on the chopping block, and as a consequence your brain tends to work differently, much differently.

Continued exposure in this position trains your brain to be globally aware and matures you into a good decision maker with good judgement.
Just like good wine, it's a process that takes time and cannot be rushed.

500 Hrs PIC is good exposure.

Might as well enjoy the ride.

[Invertago]

Meh, poor guy, dedicated years warming that right seat and now they want him to spend some time making decisions, life isn't fair. Has the captain let you actually land the airplane yet for 2010? ha ha ha, sorry no sympathy here, you ought to feel lucky to have gotten that first job with low time. Go dump some jumpers if instructing is beneath you.

[trey kule]

Well it seems that the vast majority here recognize the value of PIC time. So, as some TC types lurk on these sites, how about we all ask for them to consider increasing the PIC time back to, what was it before, 750 hrs. wasnt it?

There are going to be more and more of this whining as all the right seat wonders find out that their speeding career path is slowed down by TC actually wanting them to get some decision making experience. And then the problem, which I have personally experienced, is that a. you know when you hire them that they are going to be gone as soon as they get the time they need, which makes training costs a real consideration, and b. you have to deal with an ego that says I am just lowering myself to fly these machines until I can bet my ticket stamped and be off back to the heavy equipment. I am usually sympathetic to new pilots, but those that somehow deluded themselves by jumping into the right seat need a little reality check.

[Oor Wullie]

250 PIC is way too low IMHO.

[shitdisturber]

I wasnt gonna say anything, but aerodude hit the nail on the head.

I agree with those of you who say that PIC is PIC and the type and complexity of the aircraft you're flying doesn't matter, weather it is a C152 or a Saab340.

Where there is a huge difference is with the TYPE OF OPERATION! I do not believe instructing prepares you for the real world. And I'm sorry but the fact is that the ''decisions'' that an instructor is gonna have to make have nothing to do with the decisions that the PIC on a sked up north or in the bush is gonna have to make. A lot of great instructors out there and I have a lot of respect for 'em, but the fact that they earn time towards the ATPL and the FOs flying skeds with actual passengers don't is just BS. PIC or not !

As the FOs on those skeds get more comfortable and more competent with the OPERATION, the Captains (the real teachers) will involve them with the decision making part of it all, as they should. This is key to good CRM btw !

I see something I don't like so I wrote an email to TC. Maybe that makes me a cry baby or an annoying winer, but at least I put my money where my mouth is and actually did something about it. Weather it works or not is not the question, and besides, can you blame a guy for trying to regain a bit of control over his own career ?!

I wasn't gonna be so blunt about it but I am not one to take a beating and go silent. I think there are a lot of typical Captains here that regard their FOs as ''people who haven't paid their dues yet'' .... nothing I can do about that except hope we dont fly together anytime soon!

------

Yes TAT I have, the company I currently work for is not approved for PIC Under supervision. My previous employer was but your Supervised time has to be logged within 12 months of your ATPL request. Im stuck with a frozen ATPL for now

If you don't have control over your career, whose fault is that? As has been said by damn near everyone in the thread, you chose to take that right seat job rather than bust your hump in the bush or pursue any of the other ways to build PIC. You've now found that that cushy right seat job isn't so cushy after all so you want someone to change the rules to suit you. So yes in fact I can blame you; you're a classic example of the modern generation who doesn't want to take responsibilty for their actions and/or suffer the consequences.

As for your complaint about instructors, you're right, they don't have to make the decisions faced by someone operating a sched. An instructor has to be able to sit without flinching and let a student make and hopefully fix their own mistakes, only stepping in when necessary, a very fine line to have to walk.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

I think this can be argued in two ways: (in each defense). I would rather a 1500 hour guy/gal flying me around than a 250 hr one.... but that’s just me!
An extreme situation here…. If and when the day comes that I stare out my passenger window when on final, and I can see the runway were landing on coming closer and closer and closer, I feel more comfortable knowing the driver up front has more than a few hours on a 152, and a Navajo. I don't think anyone can argue this. But one other thing comes to mind as well (see point #2) Also keep in mind there are people with 5000 hours who have killed people, and people with far less who have saved the day . I think it's a fine line of of course. But take this for what its worth.

1) It is indeed safer, (obviously) ,to have someone with more time , exercising the privileges which come along side the ATPL . Nothing new....
OR
2) Just because many of you went to hell and back to get where you are means that everyone else has to? There is a very fine line between being realistic, and being a complete pessimist. Some insist others eat the dirt just because they did. Some sick satisfaction or something. Be careful. I would love to know how most of you feel about the Jazz Award entry level thing: P .

I do not feel entitled to anything in this industry, however, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson, “The Harder I work, the luckier I seem to get". In all honesty, the harder I work, the luckier I seem to get...

[Intentional Left Bank]

When I had little experience, I didn't value experience, nor did I realize how little I knew. In fact, I thought I knew a lot.

The more experience I get, the more value I place on the experience I have. The more experience I get, the more I realize how little I knew when I had little experience. There more experience I get, the more I realize there quite simply is no substitute for experience.

SIC time x2 is no substitute for PIC time. Those of you denigrating 1500hrs instructing vs. 1500hrs f/o don't get it--and you won't get it until you learn it the hard way through experience in the left seat. As Mr. Rumsfelt would say, the value of PIC time is your unknown unknown.

As we know, there are known knowns.

There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns.

That is to say we know there are some things we do not know.

But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

[Randleman]

Not to hijack the thread-but why do we have 300 hour guys instructing? I mean, the industry really is backwards. Shouldn't it be the 3-4-5000 hour guys teaching people to fly? Nothing against the 300 hour guys (heck, I am one of them), but it was just an interesting point brought up...unfortunately, the pay will never be good enough to attract high time guys to instructing

Personally, Delta Hotel, I see and hear your point-not saying I necessarily agree with your stand, but I hear what you're saying. Let's say you are a 300 hour TT guy, like me, who has 175 PIC hours...and is working for a company in a large city in a job he is comfortable with. As he builds his time, he somehow has to get that last 75 hours of pic time. If the company flies only Metro 3s, or something along those lines (and yes, there are companies you can get on with that fly planes this big when you only have 300 TT...obviously, some ground work before hand will be involved..), then how is he supposed to move up to Captain? Either he has to quit his comfortable job, or he has to rent. I'm not saying you shouldn't grow a pair and do what is necessary-but it does kinda suck, and I can see why he, or anyone else, would be a bit bummed out about it. All of this being said, I don't know if I agree 250 hours is too low-as it is the company who decides if they think you are ready to fly PIC, not Transport-, but heck, what do I know, I'm just a 300 hour wonder

[Randleman]

I

2) Just because many of you went to hell and back to get where you are means that everyone else has to? There is a very fine line between being realistic, and being a complete pessimist. Some insist others eat the dirt just because they did. Some sick satisfaction or something. Be careful. I would love to know how most of you feel about the Jazz Award entry level thing: P .

I do not feel entitled to anything in this industry, however, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson, “The Harder I work, the luckier I seem to get". In all honesty, the harder I work, the luckier I seem to get...

Two thumbs up. This is one of the best points on there. Some will get lucky, some will have to work harder, it's the way the industry works.

SIC time x2 is no substitute for PIC time. Those of you denigrating 1500hrs instructing vs. 1500hrs f/o don't get it--and you won't get it until you learn it the hard way through experience in the left seat. As Mr. Rumsfelt would say, the value of PIC time is your unknown unknown.

Think about the type of decisions being made. An instructor peeks out of his window in the morning, sees that mix of snow and rain coming down sideways, calls his students, and cancels his flying for the day. Instructors don't make decisions while flying a fully loaded navajo on approach with ice accumulating on the de icing boots at what seems a faster rate than the boots are shedding it, in 30 kt gusting winds in hard IMC. Again, not bashing instructing time, I am just saying. F/Os may not be making these decisions-but they are at least in a position to observe and learn from the captain making these descions.

[Justjohn]

[

SIC time x2 is no substitute for PIC time. Those of you denigrating 1500hrs instructing vs. 1500hrs f/o don't get it--and you won't get it until you learn it the hard way through experience in the left seat. As Mr. Rumsfelt would say, the value of PIC time is your unknown unknown.

[/quote]

Think about the type of decisions being made. An instructor peeks out of his window in the morning, sees that mix of snow and rain coming down sideways, calls his students, and cancels his flying for the day. Instructors don't make decisions while flying a fully loaded navajo on approach with ice accumulating on the de icing boots at what seems a faster rate than the boots are shedding it, in 30 kt gusting winds in hard IMC. Again, not bashing instructing time, I am just saying. F/Os may not be making these decisions-but they are at least in a position to observe and learn from the captain making these descions.[/quote]

And you don't seem to be grasping it either. It's not all about the type of flying being done, some of it has to be about making those decisions. And do you really think that instructors are all ' ho hum, I see a cloud .. let's stay home' ? I've done a few thousand of each .. Instructing and Capt'n on a 'ho. They each have there challenges. And the Tuff day's are never the absolutes, it's the marginal day's where the mission can safely be accomplished .. but not if it gets much worse.


The least important thing about being a Captain is flying the airplane. At this level, We can all fly an airplane. Being in command is something else entirely.

And I think the ATPL is way to easy to obtain as it its. Considering that it is the peek of our profession and the privilages it bestows ? Is it really only worth a couple of years of line flying and a weekend study course ? Should it not be worth the effort of at least a Masters Degree and like maybe 5 years or more of professional flying ?

I have and ATPL and maybe 5000 TT and I'm in awe of the privilages my licence entails.

[Prairie Chicken]

The Captains seat may only be a few feet away, but when you get there its a whole different ball game.

Its truly amazing how perceptions change when the buck stops with you.

x, what, 10 or 20

The least important thing about being a Captain is flying the airplane. At this level, We can all fly an airplane. Being in command is something else entirely.

Very well said, jj.