Jazz pilots contract?

[Captn Flex]

Merlin i just compare the pay scale of Jazz vs the major US regional flying CRJ and Dash8 and the are in the top tier.
You can check yourself at
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ional.html

So are they asking for across the board pay raise or what?

[prop2jet]

Capt Flex: The U.S. Regional carriers are among the lowest paid in North America with some of the worst working conditions out there. They are able to do this given the basic experience level that exists. You really cannot compare what happens south of the border to how pilots work through the ranks here in Canada.

I believe the figures you are refering to are formula pay figures for the regional carriers in the U.S. Whereas at Jazz we are on a Status Pay system. You cannot directly compare a DH8 Capt's pay south of the border to say a Jazz DH8 (status paid) Capt without taking into account the big picture. The simplest way I look at this is at Jazz, we are all pilots, we have seniority and rank. We are paid to fly regardless of size of aircraft. That being said, the formula used to calculate the current rates we are being paid needs to be changed to reflect the type of aircraft that may be introduced into the fleet.

The offer presented by Jazz to it's pilots is an insult in that what they are offering in one hand they are taking away with another. No one is asking that Jazz not be profitable. Jazz has lots of cash on hand and this is evidenced by the amount being distributed to the unit holders. Over $470 million has gone to the unitholders over the past 5 years. The current cash distribution is $0.60/unit on an annual basis and JR has said he wants this to continue as they convert to a corporation later this year. One of the most profitable airlines in history, Southwest currently pays a dividend of $0.02 / share.

[Localizer]

Capt Flex: The U.S. Regional carriers are among the lowest paid in North America with some of the worst working conditions out there. They are able to do this given the basic experience level that exists. You really cannot compare what happens south of the border to how pilots work through the ranks here in Canada.

I believe the figures you are refering to are formula pay figures for the regional carriers in the U.S. Whereas at Jazz we are on a Status Pay system. You cannot directly compare a DH8 Capt's pay south of the border to say a Jazz DH8 (status paid) Capt without taking into account the big picture. The simplest way I look at this is at Jazz, we are all pilots, we have seniority and rank. We are paid to fly regardless of size of aircraft. That being said, the formula used to calculate the current rates we are being paid needs to be changed to reflect the type of aircraft that may be introduced into the fleet.

The offer presented by Jazz to it's pilots is an insult in that what they are offering in one hand they are taking away with another. No one is asking that Jazz not be profitable. Jazz has lots of cash on hand and this is evidenced by the amount being distributed to the unit holders. Over $470 million has gone to the unitholders over the past 5 years. The current cash distribution is $0.60/unit on an annual basis and JR has said he wants this to continue as they convert to a corporation later this year. One of the most profitable airlines in history, Southwest currently pays a dividend of $0.02 / share.

Don't forget the $15 million for Pluna ...

[mbav8r]

Of course Joe wants it to continue, how many shares do you think he has at this point in time.

[cdnpilot77]

Is it interesting that Jazz has a job posting for pilots on their website today? It seems as though it was posted this morning. It says 45 positions are available. I haven't been on the Jazz website for a while but I don't recall seeing a pilot posting in a long time.

[Bede]

What is the company offering? When do the results of the strike vote come out?

[merlin]

Captn Flex, are you saying because the U.S. regionals pay crap its justified? Or are you saying that you think the current pay scale is good?

[Captn Flex]

Prop2jet: ''The current cash distribution is $0.60/unit on an annual basis and JR has said he wants this to continue as they convert to a corporation later this year. One of the most profitable airlines in history, Southwest currently pays a dividend of $0.02 / share.''

Don't you think those numbers are due to creative accounting (no other airline can show this type of return on investment) or is it a proverbial golden goose??
Go for it, but be carefull not to kill it...

Good luck

[teacher]

The results of the strike vote will be made public May 27th. As for what we're demanding I'll leave that to ALPA to disclose if they feel it appropriate. If a Tentative Agreement is reached than that will be made public eventually too. Either way we're demanding better than what we have now but we are a reasonable group and don't want to do any harm to the company but expect fair compensation for what we do.

You can't compare the regional system in the U.S. to us at Jazz. For one, the average Jazz flight deck probably has over 15-20,000 hours in it versus perhaps 5000 in the states, maybe.

[Captn Flex]

Captn Flex, are you saying because the U.S. regionals pay crap its justified? Or are you saying that you think the current pay scale is good?

Merlin what i am saying is look aroud what the competition is paying as you do compete on many transborder routes with those US regional airlines.
I do not know what kind of raise you are looking for, a cost of living adjustment plus what?
But one of the shortfall of status pay is that the bigger equipment subsidise the smallest. You can not have it both way.

[countryhick]

But one of the shortfall of status pay is that the bigger equipment subsidise the smallest. You can not have it both way.

Actually, I do not consider this a shortfall. Industry standard wages are applied for each equipment type, and then spread evenly amongst the pilot group. Lifestyle then becomes the main factor when deciding whether to move to a different type, not $$$.

[merlin]

Teacher, what do you think would be a reasonable wage for Jazz pilots?

[mattedfred]

$1,000,000

[teacher]

Not sure about that one. ALPA has put together a formula that takes into consideration aircraft productivity and determines a wage based on that. Number of DH8s, CRJs 757s etc and takes average seats, speed, range, average industry wage and comes up with a number that is than spread among the pilot group. I havn't seen it yet and until I do and run the numbers myself I'm not sure what would be fair. Personally I'd like to see FOs start at no less than $45 and Capts top out at $120 with current aircraft types but I don't see that happening (Capt wage) in this CA, maybe the next one. The floating formula is good because if the company expands crews do better but if the company doesn't or contracts than Jazz isn't hamstrung to a higher wage scale.

Keep in mind though that like our union said, money comes in different forms. Benefits, perdiems and lifestyle items in a contract can be worth just as much as cash.

[prop2jet]

Cargojet through their income trust pays out $0.50/unit on an annual basis. They are not exactly the wage leaders in the Air Freight Transportation sector. I cannot comment on what they intend to pay by way of dividends once they reorganize into a corporation. What I can say and has been said by Jazz itself, the cash distributions to the unit holders has been handsome to say the least!

Capt Flex: The rates for the CPA were renegotiated already and from what I understand AC has benefited from this rate renwal. Further rate adjustments will take place in the years to come. I suggest you take some time and watch the Frontline documentary that outlined many issues faced by regional pilots south of the border. For all the talk of Jazz pilots lowering the bar I suggest that anyone who thinks we should suffer the same deplorable conditions themselves subscribe to the belief that we should lower the bar.

[rudder]

The CPA renegotiation saves AC $50M/yr. Multiply that by the 10 years remaining on the extended CPA and AC benefits to the tune of $500M. The Jazz unitholders will by September of 2010 have been rewarded with over $500M in distributions. Many of the unitholders have received more in accumulated distributions than they paid for the actual units.

While all this is going on, the Jazz pilots are working under a CCAA-era collective agreement and the company proposal is for that to continue.

So, what's wrong with this picture?

[Captn Flex]

Prop2jets: ''I suggest you take some time and watch the Frontline documentary that outlined many issues faced by regional pilots south of the border''

I did watch the program. The worst case of 'abuse' is the ridiculous low pay new hired FO in the US have to start up at (pay 21-25/h X70= X12= 17500-21000/year).
While the startup salary at Jazz is almost double at $35800.
Working conditions differ a lot as well. So it is not comparable.
The level of public sympathy drops fast when you start talking of average salary 55000/y and tops close to 100000. (Hey i am not saying you do not desserve it)

I agree everybody desserve some type of raise but it is usually a combinaison of yearly increase in the payscale+promotions+benefits (pension/insurances ect)+inflation+increase?
Once you reach the top (no more promotion or years of service increase) then it flattens out.

Good luck and have a good summer either way (strike/no strike) things go.

[Mig29]

Hey Jazz folks,

is it true that so far the status pay will apply to 757 drivers as well???

[Flying Low]

Yes...status pay for all types we operate at Jazz.

The idea is to calculate a Captain rate based on the different types. The following is an oversimplified example.

DH8-100 $100/hr
DH8-300 $110/hr
CRJ100/200 $120/hr
CRJ705 $135/hr
B757 $170/hr

If you have one of each type with one Captain per aircraft the rate would work out to $127/hr. If you add two B757's to the fleet with a Captain each the average becomes $139.29/hr. People have expressed a concern that we will operate a large aircraft for cheaper thereby competing unfairly with other operators of the same type. This isn't true as Jazz would be required to charge the client (Thomas Cook as an example) a high enough rate to cover the increase in the wage for all pilots at the company. The money is all still there...it's just spread around more. Where the savings comes from is the reduction in training events due to pilots not jumping types continuously in order to make more money. Pilots will tend to pick lifestyle over metal.

The above numbers are fictious...I just made them up as an example.

[teacher]

+1 Very well explained.

[Bede]

Flying Low,

Very well explained. And here I thought you were the dumb one in the family.

[Flying Low]

That's right Bede. If I understand it...the rest of you have no excuse!

[Redwine]

If I am not mistaken, doesn't British Airways and a slew of other carriers have the same sort of set-up? Let the younger- eager- to chase the metal type fly the overseas heavy junk flying (imo), and let the seniors fly the domestic stuff so they can be closer to their families etc, same pay.... makes sense to me. AC must be throwing millions away in training costs/displacements and you name it. Money that could potentially have been diverted in to the money hungry egotypical pilots wallet....

[mbav8r]

Money that could potentially have been diverted in to the money hungry egotypical pilots wallet....

Don't you mean, diverted to managements bonuses or shareholder's pockets.
I'm not bitter or anything

[yycflyguy]

Well, it's Strike Vote Release Day. Let me guess. Pilots vote over 95% to strike. Any takers?