Leaving an engine off

[RVR6000]

Airline Mishaps Raise Concern
As Air Safety Officials Hold Hearings on Pilot Discipline, Two Risky Events Emerge
BY ANDY PASZTOR

Pilots for two U.S. commuter airlines in the past few months failed to start up the second engine on their jets before getting ready to take off, according to safety experts. The unusual incidents are prompting concern among federal aviation regulators and industry officials.

The events, which haven't been reported before, ended safely with both regional jets turning off the runway without gaining speed or flying.

But the cockpit lapses raise new questions about the professionalism of some crews flying for commuter carriers, even as the National Transportation Safety Board on Wednesday continued its public sessions about how to enhance...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... NewsSecond

[taylor498]

"Hey Jim, this thing need lots of rudder or what?!"

[cdnpilot77]

Is this a common occurance allowed in SOP's? I was in Syracuse NY in the fall and sat there at the airport for about an hour. No less than 10 dash 8's taxiied by with only 1 engine running heading for departure. Most of these didn't start the second engine until holding short or very shortly before. Obviously they were on their game enough to start them before line up and pushing the throttles, but it is easy to see how this could happen if bad weather or other things took the attention of the pilots when they would normally have started up. No excuse for it, but I could see how it would happen.

[A Regulator]

I can think of two types of large turboprops that taxiing on one engine is SOP, a two engine taxi is only required on slippery surfaces. I don't fly any dash products so I can't comment on those ones. But of course if you follow the check list it does say to start the other engine prior to take-off.

[iflyforpie]

Maybe they need to put an 'engine fail' light on the glareshield like the old 727s...

[xsbank]

Gee, just think how efficient aircraft operations would be if there weren't any pilots on board? Hmmmm. Think how much we could save..... remember when we used to have a navigator, a flight engineer and two pilots? Remember how expensive that was? Isn't the military using a lot of drones and lots of trains are operated without drivers? Hmmmm..... Think how much we could save - I'd get a MUCH bigger Xmas bonus.... Hmmmm......

[linecrew]

Gee, just think how efficient aircraft operations would be if there weren't any pilots on board? Hmmmm. Think how much we could save..... remember when we used to have a navigator, a flight engineer and two pilots? Remember how expensive that was? Isn't the military using a lot of drones and lots of trains are operated without drivers? Hmmmm..... Think how much we could save - I'd get a MUCH bigger Xmas bonus.... Hmmmm......

Give it a few years...the US military is developing the technology for unmanned cargo aircraft for HAZMAT loads. My guess is that the long term trickle down effect, perhpas 30 or more years from now, will mean that 'freight dog' pilot numbers will be a minority amongst aviatiors. What freight company wouldn't want to sweeten the bottom line by eliminating a handful of pilot salaries?

http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation ... mbat-zones

[mbav8r]

At Jazz, you cannot taxi the Dash on one engine because if the engine driven hydraulic pump were to quit you would lose braking and I believe steering. They will however taxi with one in feather to save fuel. I can't imagine how they have permission to taxi a Dash on one, the only thing comes to mind is, you do have about 3 applications of brake pressure if the pump quits. But I don't recall a warning system for the pump failing, so who the heck knows.
Were these Q400s and if so anyone know if they have an electric hyd pump?

[cdnpilot77]

Were these Q400s

No, the ones I saw were definately earlier model -8

[Expat]

Russian pilots pilots routinely taxi AN 24 and Il 114 with one engine...

[bcflyer]

Taxing on one engine is common place at busy airports where long waits can be the norm. (EWR, LGA etc) or for really long taxi routes. (Rwy 5 in YYZ, or 34 in YYC for example) Not just turboprops but many jet powered aircraft as well. (huge fuel savings) As long as you have SOP's to ensure the second engine is started in time its really not a big deal.

[prop2jet]

One would have to ask if anyone really had their heads in the right place. For one, there would be a lot of messages displayed on the EICAM / EICAS , annunciator panel or whatever display you want to call it for a "dead" engine.

[Inverted2]

I almost took off with the rear engine off in a C337. When I was taxiing into position I noticed the alternator light for the rear engine was on which got my attention. Thats why they always say power up with the rear engine first. The engine stalled while I was waiting to takeoff. Apparently has caused quite a few 337 accidents over the years!!!

[SAR_YQQ]

Perhaps the Dash's taxi with their APU running too - in order to backup the hydraulic pump on the operating engine?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Perhaps the Dash's taxi with their APU running too - in order to backup the hydraulic pump on the operating engine?

There is an airline executive anywhere in North America, at least, that is going to spend the money on an APU for a Dash......

[whiteguy]

Perhaps the Dash's taxi with their APU running too - in order to backup the hydraulic pump on the operating engine?

There is an airline executive anywhere in North America, at least, that is going to spend the money on an APU for a Dash......

Lots of Dash's around with APUs in them. I think the Jazz 300s on the charter side have APUs.

[Hawkerflyer]

On takeoff from ZZZZ the crew of a falcon 900EX easy experienced what the crew was convinced was a failure of the #1 engine at or around V1. The aircraft made a normal takeoff; the crew discussed the problem and then made the decision to divert to an airport that their maintenance department advised was the best place to have the problem evaluated. What follows is the report given to maintenance personnel upon arrival. On departure from ZZZZ falcon 900EX easy; experienced a failure of the #1 engine. The aircraft had just completed an oceanic crossing. All passenger were deplaned and the aircraft readied for departure requiring no services before starting for the short trip to ZZZZ1. On departure from ZZZZ full power was smoothly applied and all 3 engines came up to takeoff power. At 80 KTS the captain moved his hand from the tiller to the control yoke and the airplane began to move slightly left of the centerline. The captain returned his hand to the tiller momentarily and then rotated at the call V2 rotate. At 200 ft AGL the cas message #1 engine fail appeared. After flying the SID the crew discussed attempting to relight the engine. It was decided that because the flight was not in jeopardy and there was no way of knowing if the engine had sustained some sort of damage that the engine should be secured and the aircraft be taken to the closest available maintenance facility. The aircraft then diverted without incident to ZZZZ2. It was not until a week later that the crew was advised that the data downloaded from the ship's fdr (flight data recorder) indicated that the engine in fact had never been started.

[iflyforpie]

Trouble transitioning from the Falcon 2000 perhaps?

[rigpiggy]

[Lots of Dash's around with APUs in them. I think the Jazz 300s on the charter side have APUs.

Maybe, don't know for sure, however the only real reason to have an APU on the dash is for operations at stations w/o GPU or Air conditioning. A charter plane would meet that criteria

[dashx]

the data downloaded from the ship's fdr (flight data recorder) indicated that the engine in fact had never been started

Ah the good old data dump.....

How did we get from jets to Dash 8’s? Oh never mind.

If I am not mistaken there would be plenty of caution lights if an engine was not running to warn you. But if you wanted to ignore all the warning lights bells and whistles well ignorance is bliss……

Dash 8's have AC powered hydraulic standby pumps. One pump for the #1 system and one pump for the #2 system. As long as one engine is running, out of feather and the crew have turned them on (or moved the flaps) the standby pumps will be active and the plane will have full hydraulic power.

You’ll need the #1 pump on in order to have main brake control (hmm isn’t there a brake check just before you start to taxi out????) if the #1 engine is not running. Of course using the parking brake makes for fun stops and using reverse on one engine would too.

All the JAZZ planes I have seen taxiing by use the #2 engine for taxiing and leave the #1 engine running but in feather.

Why run on one engine (whether in feather or turned off?) Simple. Economics.

Then again putting stress on the airframe and other systems doesn’t make sense either but hey I’m not a genius accountant.

In the old days of City Express Dash 7’s would taxi out with 2 engines running. No standby pumps so one engine on left side for #1 system and one engine on right side for #2 system.

It would make for some interesting mornings when they would shear a starter gen. shaft and limp back to the hangar. So to speak.

-x

[172PIC]

Some guy tried taking off at CYFD last summer with one engine in an Aztec (or something like that - private US plane not the club's) - he made it maybe a 1/4 mile into the cornfield off the end of the runway. Search the Cadors if curious.

[harveymushman]

on the EMJ 175-190, if you are taxiing on one engine, there are no extra eicas messages, and if you press the take-off config button, the nice lady says "take-off okay!"

[dashx]

I'd thought you'd get a message from the Chairman of the board on the Emb's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uESWm702 ... re=related

[rigpiggy]

I almost took off with the rear engine off in a C337. When I was taxiing into position I noticed the alternator light for the rear engine was on which got my attention. Thats why they always say power up with the rear engine first. The engine stalled while I was waiting to takeoff. Apparently has caused quite a few 337 accidents over the years!!!

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cessna-T ... 19ac2c368f

as the placard says "Taxi and Takeoff Lead with rear engine power, check RPM and Fuel Flow"

In the current climate they will try and save every nickel, for the Executives Pension Fund

[The Old Fogducker]

......

In the current climate they will try and save every nickel, for the Executives Pension Fund

Incorrect Rigpiggy ... those funds go to "The International Keep The Little Man Down" fund. They hold conference calls evey Monday morning to determine the best way to keep employees in their place for the remainder of the week. ... or at least thats what some trade-unionist types would have you believe.

Regards from,
The weaselly Old Fogducker ... exploiter of his fellow man and defiler of all thats holy.