Jazz....Just couldn't get it stopped?

[Doc]

So, it's been about a year and a half now, and still no explanation as to why a Dash 8 ran off the end of a ten thousand foot runway in CYYB.
We already know the causes of the Q-400 crash near KBUF, and several others. The cause of the crash that killed the President of Poland was out in the open in a matter of hours.
But the Jazz Dash 8 incident? That still remains hidden under cloaks of secrecy. Why? Did some dark and mysterious issue exist in the codkpit that night?
I've even heard that the scenario has been used in SIM training sessions, yet when I bring up the subject, I'm told about what a "God" I seem to think I am. That, "it could happen to anyone...including, you (me)..." I still have NO idea what "it" is, and neither do the rest of the aviation community. Because it's a big secret.
Let's admit you "screwed up" and are hiding behind somebody's skirts on the issue. I've heard the aircraft was still in the air at the half way point and touched down at the 7000 foot mark. But, nobody's talking.
I guess the folks at Jazz think nobody has a right to know?
Now, before the rest of you start whining at me to "just let it go...", don't you think you have a right to know? Some of us ARE the flying public on our days off....and we have family and friends who fly Jazz.
Flame away.

[teacher]

Ask the TSB.

[Squid]

Classic Doc. Some guys never change.

[modi13]

Ask the TSB.

We're sans report.

[Hedley]

Didn't Air France have a little problem at YYZ with landing long and hot?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_358

Last I heard, the bozos at Air France were suing because they didn't think the overrun was good enough for them

You probably won't believe this, either:

When the aircraft was near the threshold, the crew members committed to the landing and believed their go-around option no longer existed

Ummmmm ....

[Doc]

Classic Doc. Some guys never change.

You'd know all about that. It ain't about me. It's about the why and the wherefore.

Am I the only person who wants to know what happened? I can't be. Can I? Anybody else give a crap?

[xsbank]

I'm with Doc - if they won't tell us the real reason we will just have to fall back on the old standby, wild speculation and innuendo.

Who gets to hide their mistakes in this industry? Maybe somebody got bought off? This is just too strange that there is no investigation and nothing made public. Off the end of a looooong runway with an aircraft that lands short and I guess its no biggy.

(I guess I'll have to spill the beans, I heard some talk at the Flying Beaver, it was the Chief Pilot and Ops Manager that were flying that night.... shhhhh, keep it under your hat.)

[Doc]

I'm going with:
They initiated a missed, cleaned up the airplane, saw the runway, decided to drop flaps and gear, with about twenty knots up the wazoo, got her down with three thousand feet to go, and skidded off the end. Funny thing is, nobody's denying it. And, if that's what went down, it scares me...it should scare you...

[iflyforpie]

I was hoping nobody was going to respond to this. Let sleeping dogs lie...

[Seriously?]

Maybe for that incident they hired Westjet's publicity team...

[El Comat]

I'm going with:
They initiated a missed, cleaned up the airplane, saw the runway, decided to drop flaps and gear, with about twenty knots up the wazoo, got her down with three thousand feet to go, and skidded off the end. Funny thing is, nobody's denying it. And, if that's what went down, it scares me...it should scare you...

Doc, you need to sit in on one of our CRM courses, as they go over this accident with a fine tooth and comb (with the presentation often given by the guy who was in the right seat). I assure that your above speculation is dead wrong (other than the tailwind, which requires zero skill to go back and fetch a METAR). I won't go into detail, as I really don't care what your final verdict would be. One of the big factors was snow covering both sets of runway end lights. The crew admits that, ultimately, the responsibility falls on their shoulders, but if you saw the presentation you'd probably drop the attitude quite a bit. There were a lot of layers in the proverbial Swiss cheese that lined up to put them off the end of the runway. Like you Doc, my initial reaction was "How could anyone take a quasi-STOL aircraft off of a 10,000' runway??" But after seeing the presentation I'm much more sympathetic, seeing as the crew has owned up to their actions.

Anyway, keep hypothesizing, it's good comedy .

EC

[Doc]

I was hoping nobody was going to respond to this. Let sleeping dogs lie...

Then you're part of the problem. I think it's time to wake up the sleeping dogs. We can't prevent this from happening again, if we don't know what happened.
This was an incident involving the feeder airline of our Flag Carrier. I know Jazz was hoping this would just "go away", but I'm not going to let it. I'm really surprised at your point of view. Perhaps you'd like to share, why you think it's Okay to keep the cause of something like this a secret? Picture a runway with something "unfriendly" off the end.....then picture your sister/mother/father/brother/friend on board this aircraft. People could have been killed here....why does nobody give a shit?

[iflyforpie]

Because you and everybody else knows damn well why it happened. The aircraft had too much kinetic energy when the runway decided to end. How to prevent it? Make sure the kinetic energy is gone before the runway ends.

But it's not that simple sometimes, is it?

Why is the North Bay incident the only one that keeps coming back? How many other aircraft with other carriers with all kinds of crews, diverse in experience, have unintentionally departed the maneuvering surface of the aerodrome? It isn't a new thing, or a Jazz thing, as much as some people would like to think it is.

Maybe through this discussion we can find something to 'dumb down aviation' some more so that these don't happen again...

[Squid]

Doc,

Why don't you clear the air with your old days and tell us about your fine screw ups? Love to hear the real story behind the stuff up north. Until then I guess it's just bad rumors. Please enlighten us with the wasaya or red lake stories. Nobody was hurt so the tsb probably doesn't really care. They have no budget.

[Doc]

I'm going with:
They initiated a missed, cleaned up the airplane, saw the runway, decided to drop flaps and gear, with about twenty knots up the wazoo, got her down with three thousand feet to go, and skidded off the end. Funny thing is, nobody's denying it. And, if that's what went down, it scares me...it should scare you...

Doc, you need to sit in on one of our CRM courses, as they go over this accident with a fine tooth and comb (with the presentation often given by the guy who was in the right seat). I assure that your above speculation is dead wrong (other than the tailwind, which requires zero skill to go back and fetch a METAR). I won't go into detail, as I really don't care what your final verdict would be. One of the big factors was snow covering both sets of runway end lights. The crew admits that, ultimately, the responsibility falls on their shoulders, but if you saw the presentation you'd probably drop the attitude quite a bit. There were a lot of layers in the proverbial Swiss cheese that lined up to put them off the end of the runway. Like you Doc, my initial reaction was "How could anyone take a quasi-STOL aircraft off of a 10,000' runway??" But after seeing the presentation I'm much more sympathetic, seeing as the crew has owned up to their actions.

Anyway, keep hypothesizing, it's good comedy .

EC

So, what you're saying is, they landed on a runway without the required legal lighting for the weather conditions? That they landed on a runway, without having a clue where they were on that runway? Is that about it? In other words they landed without the required visual reference to a runway? How did they know it wasn't a taxiway? Or a highway? You're lucky I'm not sitting in on one of your CRM classes. They're really lucky nobody on board had the knowledge to sue their asses.
"Oh, we couldn't see the lights, so we landed anyway...."

[Doc]

Doc,

Why don't you clear the air with your old days and tell us about your fine screw ups? Love to hear the real story behind the stuff up north. Until then I guess it's just bad rumors. Please enlighten us with the wasaya or red lake stories. Nobody was hurt so the tsb probably doesn't really care. They have no budget.

But, it's not about me now, is it. I could be Jack the Ripper. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I know quite a bit about you as well. Again, it's irrelevant.

[raven54]

Don't worry Doc, no one did anything wrong

[raven54]

Don't worry Doc, no one did anything wrong

[raven54]

Is there an echo in here?

[Doc]

One must wonder who has operational control over Jazz aircraft landing on poorly lit runways?
Raven54, somebody did something wrong. Must be pretty embarrassing to try to sweep it under the rug like this?
One would hope that companies the size of Jazz would adhere closely to SOP's? They aren't really considering cutting these guys loose in 757's.....are they?

[Conquest Driver]

So where is the Transportation Safety Board of Canada in all of this?? This involved one of the "big 3" in Canada. A TSB report would clear the air for everyone. Does anyone know if the TSB is, or is not, going to do an investigation and report on this?

If not, I'd have to ask myself why?

[Doc]

If not, I'd have to ask myself why?

It's called "greasing the palm", "payola", "in bed together". Whatever you call it, it's a definite smoke screen.

[xsbank]

Don't you Jazz-apologists get it? An aircraft over-ran a runway in shitty conditions and the whole event was covered up, discussion threads were deleted and we still have no clue what happened. This flight could have been flown by Jesus Christ and Mohammed and I still want to know what happened. All your warm and fuzzy CRM stuff and your bashing Doc is a lot of hocus pocus. Tell us what really happened or stop trying to obfuscate and butt out.

[iflyforpie]

Well... how about this?

Cadors Number: 2008O2798
Reporting Region: Ontario
Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Incident
Occurrence Date: 2008-12-15
Occurrence Time: 0451 Z
Day Or Night: night-time
Fatalities: 0
Injuries: 0
Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYYB
Aerodrome Name: North Bay
Occurrence Location: North Bay (CYYB)
Province: Ontario
Country: CANADA
World Area: North America
Reported By: NAV CANADA
AOR Number: 102660-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 3
TSB Occurrence No: A08O0333
Aircraft Information
Flight #: JZA7779
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane
Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: DEHAVILLAND - CAN
Model: DHC 8 102
Year Built: 1987
Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: PRATT & WHITNEY-CAN
Engine Model: PW120A
Engine Type: Turbo prop
Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Landing
Damage: Minor
Owner: JAZZ AIR LP - AIR CANADA JAZZ
Operator: AIR CANADA JAZZ (5002)
Operator Type: Commercial
Event Information
Aerodrome - runway surface condition
Aerodrome - service/site/facility cutback
Aerodrome or runway shutdown
Runway excursion
Weather - other
Detail Information
User Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2008-12-15
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE Supplemental information received from T.S.B. Initial Notification [#A08O0333]: The (Air Canada) Jazz Air Limited Partnership de Havilland DHC-8-102, registration C-GTBP, was landing on runway 08 at North Bay, Ontario. The aircraft landed on the runway but was unable to stop, traveling 80 meters off the end, coming to rest in the snow. Damage to the aircraft was minor and there were no injuries. The T.S.B. set this as a Class 3 investigation. A Minister's Observer will be assigned.
User Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2008-12-15
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: The (Air Canada) Jazz Air Limited Partnership de Havilland DHC-8 aircraft (operating as flight JZA7779) was concluding a scheduled IFR flight from Toronto (LBPIA) (CYYZ) to North Bay Airport (CYYB). JZA7779 slid off of runway 08 approximately 80m after doing a localizer approach. ERS, Ontario Provincial Police and airport staff all advised.

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

TSB reports usually take two years, so I'm sure you will get all your questions answered.

CADORS 2008O2811 might also have something to do with it...

[modi13]

I'm with Doc, although much less because of the lessons to be learned than because everyone who knows what actually happened has tried to deflect the conversation rather than address the issue. On the thread in which it began Doc merely asked what happened, to which the responses were "You don't think it could happen to you?", "Everyone knows what happened there", "I guess you've never had an accident", and "Let it go". The subject was broached by someone who knows the circumstances surrounding the accident, so it's not like Doc went trolling and Jazz-bashing. Why is everyone so guarded? Why won't anyone just tell us what happened? We honestly don't know, and since I was unable to find a TSB report to satisfy my curiosity I'd really like an explanation of the event.