Jazz....Just couldn't get it stopped?

[Doc]

Iflyforpie.....that's all very well, and fine. We all know he was unable to stop, we want to know WHY. Do you even see a difference?

[Doc]

Lets hear a defense from somebody from Jazz. So far, the way I read it, we have El Comat, who pretty much said the crew ignored the CARS and SOP's and knowingly landed without adequate visual reference to lights on the ground. That, or they ignored the fact the lights were not "there" and landed anyway.
This worries me, as a member of the flying public. When I buy my ticket, I expect the crews to at least follow the rules.

[PAFG]

One must wonder who has operational control over Jazz aircraft landing on poorly lit runways?
Raven54, somebody did something wrong. Must be pretty embarrassing to try to sweep it under the rug like this?
One would hope that companies the size of Jazz would adhere closely to SOP's? They aren't really considering cutting these guys loose in 757's.....are they?

This comment is unreal "They aren't really considering cutting these guys loose in 757's.....are they" I hope im missing something, or im sure you're trying to shit disturb like always.

Are you just upset you got stuck flying a king air? Mad at any company that canned you...you dont have anything nice to say about Wasaya either. I dont mean to take personal shots, but I took your comment personal. Im just asking, I really dont know...maybe you chose...

I know you are the almighty pilot, and never make any mistakes...guys fucked up...it happens....lets be happy no one died. Maybe you should go to Jazz and teach us all your mighty knowledge. Then everyone in Canada will feel safe flying with Jazz.

I may have an opinion about what happened that night...maybe I dont like a type of approach, maybe I dont like pilots working their bags off and getting paid so little. But who am I to say...I will leave it to the people who are paid to find out what went wrong in accidents or incidents.

Get over yourself. If you honestly think that you need to complain about the training and safety record of Jazz or any other major carrier in Canada you dont...go look at some stats. I guarantee shit happens every month that no one hears about...did you know Emirates has struck tails on their planes during rotation because they put the wrong numbers in? They must be horrible pilots! Did you know a blue jay hit a window in my house this morning? I say ground the whole fleet!

We get it that you are trying to make a point....but my god, you could have picked a better topic then over running a runway. If this makes the training and pilots at Jazz not able to fly 757's then I guess im a poorly trained pilot!

Of course this is my 2 cents...im just a dumbass pilot.

[Doc]

PAFG, you felt strongly enough about it to post twice.
Again, it's not about me. Attack me all you want. I'm the worst pilot in the world. I'm a total loser. I am a complete screw up. What is your point? What has it to do with the subject at hand.
That's all you guys can do. Attack me. Gee, that's relevant.
I said nothing about Jazz's training.
I'm not "stuck" flying a King Air. I'd put my lifestyle up against anybody's.
Why would you stoop to calling me "the almighty pilot..."?
I'm not talking about safety records, Emirates, or the Blue Jay with the navigational challenges.
I am talking about one specific incident, about which the details seem to have been covered up, by persons unknown.

[PAFG]

I am finished replying about this topic...but Doc, you really dont need to worry about your safety on any of Canada's carriers, especially basing your arguments on one incident.

Actually you should probably not fly at all...Air Canada took an RJ off a runway in the maritimes..I cant believe they trust them with big jets...West Jet tapped a wing on a runway in Halifax in 05...I cant believe how shooty their training is as well...

[Doc]

I am finished replying about this topic...but Doc, you really dont need to worry about your safety on any of Canada's carriers, especially basing your arguments on one incident.

Actually you should probably not fly at all...Air Canada took an RJ off a runway in the maritimes..I cant believe they trust them with big jets...West Jet tapped a wing on a runway in Halifax in 05...I cant believe how shooty their training is as well...

I'll miss you. You bring up valid points. But, the cause of the RJ accident is a matter of record. As are the causes of most accidents. This one, well it sort of remains dormant. Point is, we all make mistakes. Trick is, to learn from them. I'd rather learn from the mistakes of others than from my own.
Cheers

[PAFG]

It seemed to me you were completely attacking Jazz...

No one is covering anything up...call the company if you have concerns...im sure they will be happy to help you out. Just dont throw companies or individuals under the buss until you know the details...and then learn from it.

[Benwa]

We just want to know the full story !!! Quit bitching at DOC !!! Just tell the story... If it's now part of your CRM courses... good gawd ! Go on and spew it out ! We'll get the cover-up story sometime in the next 6-9 months. But we want the good stuff now.

[PAFG]

Ok now I am done...and I do appologize for attacking you personally...as I said I felt attacked personally.

I hear what you are saying, but I still dont think there is a cover up...the facts will come out in due time from proper sources.

Cheers

[Doc]

Ok now I am done...and I do appologize for attacking you personally...as I said I felt attacked personally.

I hear what you are saying, but I still dont think there is a cover up...the facts will come out in due time from proper sources.

Cheers

Absolutely no hard feelings. I know, and respect lot of the folks at Jazz. You have a couple of complete jerk-offs, doesn't everybody.
I'm used to personal attacks. Some folks don't like the truth and throw up smoke screens to lead people astray.
Beers on me.

[Doc]

And now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=bU0DxJV ... re=related

[AuxBatOn]

Doc,

I'm guessing you never made a bad judgement call, never had a brain fart or made a mistake?

An accident/indicent free aviation industry is an ideal we all stive for (I don't know anybody that goes out the door saying "I will crash an airplane today"), however as long as there are humans in control, there will be external pressures on the crew, bad judgemetn calls will be made, people will have brain farts and will make mistakes. Maybe you are [insert you religious god here] gift to aviation, but most of us aren't.

[Hackmech]

After reading everyones posts and replies to DOC, I had to respond in some form. Why do you think there was a cover up on this incident? Does anyone not remember the CRJ hard landing in YYZ that caused both MLG to puncture through the wing? There was no cover up on that accident, no one was injured which was first and foremost but again there was no "cover up" of that situation. So take your conspiratorial head out of your ass and wait for the TSB official report, thats why the Board was created.

[KAG]

I think it’s fair to assume those pilots didn’t intentionally attempt a landing ¾ the way down the runway. My money is on a series of events/small mistakes/weather that created the perfect condition to allow two experienced aviators to be lead astray.
I highly doubt the “giver” attitude was present in that cockpit, or in any Jazz cockpit. That mentality has no place in any flight deck where people are intrusting you to get them from A to B safely.

Like a bad movie taking it’s time getting to DVD, this non fatal incident is not a priority to “rush” the findings to print. It would be nice to know what happened, not for cannon fodder to trash Jazz (or those involved) but to educate people so as not to fall into the same trap.

[modi13]

The point is that the issue was raised by a Jazz pilot, whose initially assumed that Doc knew what he was talking about; since apparently everyone at the company knows the story, he seemed to think it was common knowledge. Doc asked what he was talking about, since no one outside Jazz knows the whole story, and suddenly everyone on the inside shut their mouths. This isn't about probing into some super-secret accident report; the Jazz pilots raised the issue, they assumed everyone was already in the know, and when we tried to find out what they were talking about they refused to answer.
Here's an analogy:
Someone approaches you on the street: "Do you really think protectionist tariffs on the import of guar gum would be good for the economy?"
You: "What are you talking about?"
Other: "So now you think you're better than everyone who's just doing their job trying to keep the economy running?"
You: "No, I really don't know what you're talking about. Could you enlighten me a bit?"
Other: "Oh, now you're saying that you're god's gift to the economy. Well I've had enough of this. If you can't admit that you were wrong then I'm leaving."

[ktcanuck]

I'm with Doc, although much less because of the lessons to be learned than because everyone who knows what actually happened has tried to deflect the conversation rather than address the issue. On the thread in which it began Doc merely asked what happened, to which the responses were "You don't think it could happen to you?", "Everyone knows what happened there", "I guess you've never had an accident", and "Let it go". The subject was broached by someone who knows the circumstances surrounding the accident, so it's not like Doc went trolling and Jazz-bashing. Why is everyone so guarded? Why won't anyone just tell us what happened? We honestly don't know, and since I was unable to find a TSB report to satisfy my curiosity I'd really like an explanation of the event.

+1!!

[xsbank]

Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad, you know. Look it up. It doesn't work. We still want to know.

[North Shore]

XS wrote earlier:

This flight could have been flown by Jesus Christ and Mohammed and I still want to know what happened.

That's easy - they were too busy having a fistfight about Israel, and forgot to mind the shop!

[El Comat]

We just want to know the full story !!! Quit bitching at DOC !!! Just tell the story... If it's now part of your CRM courses... good gawd ! Go on and spew it out ! We'll get the cover-up story sometime in the next 6-9 months. But we want the good stuff now.

Seeing as the presentation/CRM exercise is a couple hours long in person, I sure as heck ain't gonna type it out here so a bunch of armchair quarterbacks can then critique it again. The TSB report will be out in due time, you can resurrect this topic then. All I'll say is that this incident belongs in aviation text books everywhere. Jazz doesn't pay me (or any other Jazzers on here) to defend the company safety culture, so don't feel like anyone on here is entitled to know what happened. I'll say that the crew made some poor decision (we all have), and this time the outside factors made it so those decisions resulted in an incident. No one is trying to "hide" anything, as some conspiracy theorists are trying to claim; lots of our pilots have yet to hear the official story (or heard it from a different CRM presenter).

Anyway, continue with the "holier than Jazz" banter, it's not like this one post will make the usual curmudgeons get off their soap box.

EC

[Squid]

Classy answer El Comat. Too bad some are on such a witch hunt. Don't try and brush your history under the carpet Doc

[Doc]

It would be nice to know what happened, not for cannon fodder to trash Jazz (or those involved) but to educate people so as not to fall into the same trap.

Exactly.

Many seem to think I'm trashing Jazz. I'm not. I want to know what happened.

AuxBatOn wants to know if I've ever made a mistake, or "had a brain fart"....many. And I've been straight up and honest about each and every one. I've been doing this for a good length of time. Of course I've had the odd boo boo. Thankfully none have been very serious. I'm not better than any of you. Just more curious than some. And, more of a pain in the ass than others.

[Nephilim]

Logic would dictate that I stay out of this, however, in empathy for the -8 crew and to keep reality in check …

Doc, I think people wouldn’t get on your case so much if you didn’t exaggerate the truth, or circumstances of the case.

EC stated; “One of the big factors was snow covering both sets of runway end lights. The crew admits that, ultimately, the responsibility falls on their shoulders, but if you saw the presentation you'd probably drop the attitude quite a bit.”

Doc, you responded kinda emphatically; “So, what you're saying is, they landed on a runway without the required legal lighting for the weather conditions? That they landed on a runway, without having a clue where they were on that runway? Is that about it? In other words they landed without the required visual reference to a runway? How did they know it wasn't a taxiway? Or a highway? You're lucky I'm not sitting in on one of your CRM classes. They're really lucky nobody on board had the knowledge to sue their asses. "Oh, we couldn't see the lights, so we landed anyway...."”

CAR 602 governs DH/MDA’s. To descend below either attitude, I mean altitude, the pilot must have the required visual reference. CAP General pg. 18 states; “The visual reference required by the pilot in order to continue the approach to a safe landing should include at least one of the following references for the intended runway and should be distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot: the runway or runway markings; The runway threshold or threshold markings; The TDZ or TDZ markings; the approach lights; the approach slope indicator system; the runway identification lights; the threshold and runway end lights; the touchdown zone lights; the parallel runway edge lights; or; the runway centerline lights.”

As you can see Doc, what references the crew landed with, may have in fact been totally legal according to the references by definition. In other words they could have legally landed without either set of runway end lights being visible! That’s happened to me before! Not you Doc?

Beyond that you have to go back further into the regulations. Something about throwing the first stone…

[Doc]

One must wonder how this same question would be handled, if it were not from me, but from a regular member of the flying public.

Either way, the question was asked. Why did it happen? How can we prevent it from happening again? To any of us.

And, that's all. I've stirred it up enough for one thread. I'm outta here. Unless provoked.

[2R]

If it takes two hours in a CRM presentation to explain it to a group of unversity graduates and the select cream of Canadas aviation schools,Just think how long it would take to explain the course of events to those of us who only went to trade school and night school.
The reason it is taking so long for any answers is so they can dumb it down enough for us dumb bastards who have never run an airplane off the end of a runway and are too stupid to figure out how to run an airplane off a 10000 foot runway.
I once saw a guy nearly run a Caravan off a 5000 foot runway and he could not explain himself either .I had to send him home for to think about it for a while and sober up ,i wonder if it is the same guy involved ?

[El Comat]

If it takes two hours in a CRM presentation to explain it to a group of unversity graduates and the select cream of Canadas aviation schools,Just think how long it would take to explain the course of events to those of us who only went to trade school and night school.
The reason it is taking so long for any answers is so they can dumb it down enough for us dumb bastards who have never run an airplane off the end of a runway and are too stupid to figure out how to run an airplane off a 10000 foot runway.
I once saw a guy nearly run a Caravan off a 5000 foot runway and he could not explain himself either .I had to send him home for to think about it for a while and sober up ,i wonder if it is the same guy involved ?

Well my friend, you win smart a$$ answer of the day in my books!

I once had a guy rear-end me while I was stopped at a traffic light (true story, BTW). He didn't really have an explanation as to what exactly happened, but he admitted that he messed up. Should anyone ever run into a stationary car at a red light??? Not a chance!! I mean, the light was red, my brake lights were on (and I had been stopped for 3 or 4 seconds), his brakes were working fine, the road was dry, the visibility was great....I mean, who in their right mind could possibly rear-end someone in those conditions???!!!!!! Someone who made a mistake or series of mistakes, that's who!

And that's what happened in YYB...a series of mistakes/conditions lined up so that the end result was a DHC8-100 80m off the end of a 10,000' runway. So please stop asking "How? how? how?" If you really want the nitty gritty details, wait for the TSB report. That way you'll give your back a rest, because a lot of you probably have some bruises on it from patting it so much, saying "I'll never do something THAT stupid!"

EC

PS - To the tough guy/Maverick I quoted above: it takes over two hours to present the material because the actual event took well over two hours to unfold (pre-flight/in-flight/post-flight), plus there's a Q&A, plus an exercise for the class to do. Believe it or not, you need to look at an ENTIRE flight sequence to properly investigate it and learn from it.