What's the prefered experience to get myself into a Falcon, Gulfstream, or Challenger?
Experience Corporate companies look for..
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Experience Corporate companies look for..
Hi all, I've always been interested in flying the biz jets. I'm trying to make the next right move in my career and was wondering what type of experience companies such as Chartright look for.. I'm building up some multiturboprop pic time.. should I continue down this road or move up to a 705 op?
What's the prefered experience to get myself into a Falcon, Gulfstream, or Challenger?
What's the prefered experience to get myself into a Falcon, Gulfstream, or Challenger?
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turbine works fine
- Rank 2
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:28 am
Re: Experience Corporate companies look for..
Network yourself!! talk to crews when you are waiting around FBO's! get your name out there!
just my $0.02
just my $0.02
Re: Experience Corporate companies look for..
aside from the obvious anything else ?
Re: Experience Corporate companies look for..
Our flight department typically only hires guys with 5000-8000hrs+. Jet experience is a must, however we have hired a couple of guys who were well know to us with just turboprop time. International experience is a bonus. All our guys are hired as captain so pic time is a must. I believe most corporate flight departments work this way too.
Get a charter job that gets you in and out of the bigger FBOs and try and meet as many people as possible.
Good corporate jobs are hard to find and the jobs usually go to someone known, or recommended to the chief pilot.
Good luck in your search.
Get a charter job that gets you in and out of the bigger FBOs and try and meet as many people as possible.
Good corporate jobs are hard to find and the jobs usually go to someone known, or recommended to the chief pilot.
Good luck in your search.
Re: Experience Corporate companies look for..
I've been out work since February even with the qualifications that "Novaboy" suggests having.
As each day goes by, you might want to add knee pads to the requirement. Its all luck... and how you... rings true.
Its just a really bad time for any level of experience out there to find something. Not many companies are bringing in additional bodies even though most are short staffed or see a slight upturn in business. The economy in the US has not really started a recovery which is effecting most Canadian business that depends on exporting to them. I've been hearing that the HST in Ontario might have a factor in the decision as well.
Its just some conjecture - its not fun having a family to feed and the phone not ringing when you've done everything right.
As each day goes by, you might want to add knee pads to the requirement. Its all luck... and how you... rings true.
Its just a really bad time for any level of experience out there to find something. Not many companies are bringing in additional bodies even though most are short staffed or see a slight upturn in business. The economy in the US has not really started a recovery which is effecting most Canadian business that depends on exporting to them. I've been hearing that the HST in Ontario might have a factor in the decision as well.
Its just some conjecture - its not fun having a family to feed and the phone not ringing when you've done everything right.
Re: Experience Corporate companies look for..
The corporate/managed route has pros and cons, here are some experiences to consider:
1) Management companies operate by consolidating services and charging them at reduced cost to the client compared to what an in house flight department would require for capital. This means that most services the management company sells including pilots, MX, must have enough margin to make a profit for the them.
2) Wages at management companies are going to be lower than the average "Corporate" position. Another thing you will find to increase profits is that aircraft will be crewed with fewer pilots. Most only have 2 pilots per aircraft. Some 3 if you are lucky. This is common even if the aircraft is capable of going international or fly both charter and the client. Some companies will try to have scheduled days off but you will ultimately always be tied to the aircraft's schedule.
3) Corporate positions are based on "Merit". This sounds good in theory but "Merit" in reality has little to do with ability. My experience is that most companies have a perception of what attributes a candidate should have for promotion and usually use somebody to gauge this in the form of "review" or "report". This is where the system breaks down as the feedback to base the promotion is only as good as the information provided by this person. My last company used a "base manager" as our station was not located at the home base. Input was solicited from this individual but not from other crew members. This individual stated to myself and several other crew members that he was "pissed off" we where hired over his buddies. How good is his information for promotion? This individual was the most "Senior" however he was also the most dangerous one to be in the cockpit with. Bad situation, but the "Merit" system has to set up with checks and balances to be equitable.
4) Training. You will likely be locked in for 2 years with most bonds. The more restrictive the bond, the worse the working conditions and pay package. Nobody ever leaves a good job. Bonds are a band aid solution to a larger issue. If you sign up for a job, stick it out and give a 110% but do your homework before you sign.
5) Upgrades. In most companies you will be trained as a PIC even though your pay will be that of an SIC. You will likely be able to do all of the duties of the PIC but your pay will be half or 2/3's at better companies. The key to upgrades is this:
Give a 110% at all times. Do note that upgrading is not just flying from the left side. Its about your ability to manage a team and communicate. Its also about maturity. My last position had a guy with no ATPL or PIC time wanting to be a Falcon 900EX Captain. Scary situation is that he might be one soon because he is a "buddy". What you need to understand is that even if you have all of the "right stuff", unless there is a business case to upgrade you (need, no increased insurance, owner will pay for it) all decisions to promote you are business driven and not based on your desire or efforts in the end.
6) MX and SMS. MX is usually contracted out. Most companies are good at getting things fixed. The issue with management companies is that preventative maintainer for things such as air duct cleaning, etc. will usually not be looked at until it is a problem. Not to say that this means MX is worse, it just means that some things will not get the TLC of a dedicated AME.
Companies that embrace safety will operate that way. Companies that don't will not. SMS is just a way for the government to lower its responsibility for oversight and leave a paper trail for easier audit by less qualified inspectors (lower oversight costs). Some companies will take SMS and do great things. Others will not and use it as a way to skirt the rules. Fly safe and refuse anything that will break regulations. Its cheaper to delay and fix than get fined for both the pilot and company. When you contrast the management/corporate with an airline, the oversight and standards can be great at both, its just easier for things to fall apart when business aviation is allowed to self regulate.
7) Expenditures. Some companies do it right and give you credit cards, and cover all costs. Some do not. Do homework before you start with a company. If you end up on the road and company credit card doesn't work, it is possible you might have to carry the expenses and be reimbursed. It is not a good sign if you do not get some sort of way for paying company expenses on the road and they want to use your personal credit rating for business. Most companies I've worked for issue every pilot a credit card or float. I have heard some companies do not. Also look out for companies that try to place overly restrictive limits on things such as hotels. While you should behave like a company money is yours (don't overspend, its your raise or job on the line) do note that some places would rather your drive 100 miles to save $20 or will book a hotel based on the cheapest price. This does not always work well in the end. Be smart with your spending.
Per Diems or straight expenses are another thing to look for. Per Diems are nice when your pay is low. You usually end up starving on the road if you try and use it for extra income. Meals in cities where people with money fly are not cheap. this is where expenses are great, you can eat, have a bit of fun as long as its kept reasonable.
Flying. Flying in corporate can be very demanding. You are going to a lot of unfamiliar places. This is great. However the downside is that you might only fly 300 hours a year. Makes it tough to get an upgrade if you have no time unless you are a "buddy". You will fly a lot and then sit for a few weeks so you get hot and then cold which is a bit of a challenge when your coworker reaches for the engine start instead of the APU.
Also note that passengers have no sense of time. "On Demand" means there are no fixed departure times, no baggage handlers, no check in counter, no resources where you are able to just sit in your seat and fly. Its totally different than airline flying. You are base manager, operations manager, MX manager, dispatch, client coordinator all rolled up into a one man army. Two or three if you have good CRM. Some guys keep information to themselves just so you have to go to them for answers. They are usually the ones who you have to watch out for.
To do well at corporate, you have to love flying and people. You also have to be a great politician and diplomat, your progression depends on these "optics".
1) Management companies operate by consolidating services and charging them at reduced cost to the client compared to what an in house flight department would require for capital. This means that most services the management company sells including pilots, MX, must have enough margin to make a profit for the them.
2) Wages at management companies are going to be lower than the average "Corporate" position. Another thing you will find to increase profits is that aircraft will be crewed with fewer pilots. Most only have 2 pilots per aircraft. Some 3 if you are lucky. This is common even if the aircraft is capable of going international or fly both charter and the client. Some companies will try to have scheduled days off but you will ultimately always be tied to the aircraft's schedule.
3) Corporate positions are based on "Merit". This sounds good in theory but "Merit" in reality has little to do with ability. My experience is that most companies have a perception of what attributes a candidate should have for promotion and usually use somebody to gauge this in the form of "review" or "report". This is where the system breaks down as the feedback to base the promotion is only as good as the information provided by this person. My last company used a "base manager" as our station was not located at the home base. Input was solicited from this individual but not from other crew members. This individual stated to myself and several other crew members that he was "pissed off" we where hired over his buddies. How good is his information for promotion? This individual was the most "Senior" however he was also the most dangerous one to be in the cockpit with. Bad situation, but the "Merit" system has to set up with checks and balances to be equitable.
4) Training. You will likely be locked in for 2 years with most bonds. The more restrictive the bond, the worse the working conditions and pay package. Nobody ever leaves a good job. Bonds are a band aid solution to a larger issue. If you sign up for a job, stick it out and give a 110% but do your homework before you sign.
5) Upgrades. In most companies you will be trained as a PIC even though your pay will be that of an SIC. You will likely be able to do all of the duties of the PIC but your pay will be half or 2/3's at better companies. The key to upgrades is this:
Give a 110% at all times. Do note that upgrading is not just flying from the left side. Its about your ability to manage a team and communicate. Its also about maturity. My last position had a guy with no ATPL or PIC time wanting to be a Falcon 900EX Captain. Scary situation is that he might be one soon because he is a "buddy". What you need to understand is that even if you have all of the "right stuff", unless there is a business case to upgrade you (need, no increased insurance, owner will pay for it) all decisions to promote you are business driven and not based on your desire or efforts in the end.
6) MX and SMS. MX is usually contracted out. Most companies are good at getting things fixed. The issue with management companies is that preventative maintainer for things such as air duct cleaning, etc. will usually not be looked at until it is a problem. Not to say that this means MX is worse, it just means that some things will not get the TLC of a dedicated AME.
Companies that embrace safety will operate that way. Companies that don't will not. SMS is just a way for the government to lower its responsibility for oversight and leave a paper trail for easier audit by less qualified inspectors (lower oversight costs). Some companies will take SMS and do great things. Others will not and use it as a way to skirt the rules. Fly safe and refuse anything that will break regulations. Its cheaper to delay and fix than get fined for both the pilot and company. When you contrast the management/corporate with an airline, the oversight and standards can be great at both, its just easier for things to fall apart when business aviation is allowed to self regulate.
7) Expenditures. Some companies do it right and give you credit cards, and cover all costs. Some do not. Do homework before you start with a company. If you end up on the road and company credit card doesn't work, it is possible you might have to carry the expenses and be reimbursed. It is not a good sign if you do not get some sort of way for paying company expenses on the road and they want to use your personal credit rating for business. Most companies I've worked for issue every pilot a credit card or float. I have heard some companies do not. Also look out for companies that try to place overly restrictive limits on things such as hotels. While you should behave like a company money is yours (don't overspend, its your raise or job on the line) do note that some places would rather your drive 100 miles to save $20 or will book a hotel based on the cheapest price. This does not always work well in the end. Be smart with your spending.
Per Diems or straight expenses are another thing to look for. Per Diems are nice when your pay is low. You usually end up starving on the road if you try and use it for extra income. Meals in cities where people with money fly are not cheap. this is where expenses are great, you can eat, have a bit of fun as long as its kept reasonable.
Flying. Flying in corporate can be very demanding. You are going to a lot of unfamiliar places. This is great. However the downside is that you might only fly 300 hours a year. Makes it tough to get an upgrade if you have no time unless you are a "buddy". You will fly a lot and then sit for a few weeks so you get hot and then cold which is a bit of a challenge when your coworker reaches for the engine start instead of the APU.Also note that passengers have no sense of time. "On Demand" means there are no fixed departure times, no baggage handlers, no check in counter, no resources where you are able to just sit in your seat and fly. Its totally different than airline flying. You are base manager, operations manager, MX manager, dispatch, client coordinator all rolled up into a one man army. Two or three if you have good CRM. Some guys keep information to themselves just so you have to go to them for answers. They are usually the ones who you have to watch out for.
To do well at corporate, you have to love flying and people. You also have to be a great politician and diplomat, your progression depends on these "optics".
Re: Experience Corporate companies look for..
Thanks for the great post CL30!
Gravity lands us, we just make it look good.
Re: Experience Corporate companies look for..
Thanks for the respones!
If jet time is a typical requirement, where would guys/gals get this time from? Jazz??
I guess I'm looking for some routes people have takin to gain the experiance necessary for a corporate gig.
Thanks again!
If jet time is a typical requirement, where would guys/gals get this time from? Jazz??
I guess I'm looking for some routes people have takin to gain the experiance necessary for a corporate gig.
Thanks again!
Re: Experience Corporate companies look for..
Not sure if you can do anything other than just apply for any entry level position to get jet time. If you've been at an airline for a while, I am not sure you would want to make the jump into corporate unless you're retired or on furlough.
Once you start getting close to the 2500 - 3000 hour mark with some turbine time behind you, you are competitive for the right seat.
Its personality and work ethic that most companies go for at this point. Flying a jet or doing international flying really isn't that hard once you get a bit of time in, its just making the effort to continously improve yourself and do it right that will get you there.
Once you start getting close to the 2500 - 3000 hour mark with some turbine time behind you, you are competitive for the right seat.
Its personality and work ethic that most companies go for at this point. Flying a jet or doing international flying really isn't that hard once you get a bit of time in, its just making the effort to continously improve yourself and do it right that will get you there.
