DOC just couldn't stop

[Doc]

Edited, because I grow weary swinging at windmills.

[Tim]

hey the thread almost made it to a FULL page of constructive discussion! a monumental run for this topic, wouldnt you agree?

[eeffoc]

The comments here are still more restrained than I've seen before about accidents. Too many are more interested in second guessing the pilots than just learning something about what happened and how to avoid it again. Try and put yourself in their shoes before you beat them up.

[xsbank]

Eeefoc, that's the whole bl**dy point! If we can deconstruct and evaluate and pick these events apart, even if the conjecture is ridiculous the entire purpose of the exercise is to make it so that NO OTHER PILOTS WILL EVER BE IN THEIR SHOES! Even if Joe Blow comes up with something you couldn't imagine in your wildest dreams, somebody may remember something about the event which will help them avoid a similar fate.

If you look at the accident types, they are the same old cr*p that we have seen over and over and over since Cat was in diapers. If you removed every repeat accident from each issue of the Safety Letter it would be a sad thin document indeed.

If this site is to remain relevant, I believe we need free rein to evaluate these events, trash the pilots as or if required, ridicule those who need ridiculing and NEVER MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AGAIN! If you are so sensitive that you can't take the heat from a mistake, you are in the wrong industry because WE ARE ALL WATCHING!

Your only job is to keep your passengers safe. Yes, its nice if we can complete the flight and make some money for our employers, but it is a minor consideration and should never conflict with your primary job. Never.

I'll bet after that Keystone event, 'Ho drivers all over Canada check their fuel more carefully. You only have to say "Keystone" and everybody in this industry knows what you are talking about. That sort of publicity and notoriety is absolutely necessary if you are not to repeat these stupid, chickensh*t accidents over and over and over and over.........................

[eeffoc]

Deconstruct and evaluate, yes. Thats exactly what needs to be done. You can put yourself in the other pilots shoes without hurting anything or anyone when details of an accident are shared. Doesn't mean you should make it personal and a big old dickswinging event which is what so often happens in this forum. Good on Doc for holding keeping his comments restrained on this one, and a descent constructive discussion about what happened.

[OhKiE DoHkIe]

This has been your best post ever. Epic!!!

Bravo man...bravo!

Ohkie

Eeefoc, that's the whole bl**dy point! If we can deconstruct and evaluate and pick these events apart, even if the conjecture is ridiculous the entire purpose of the exercise is to make it so that NO OTHER PILOTS WILL EVER BE IN THEIR SHOES! Even if Joe Blow comes up with something you couldn't imagine in your wildest dreams, somebody may remember something about the event which will help them avoid a similar fate.

If you look at the accident types, they are the same old cr*p that we have seen over and over and over since Cat was in diapers. If you removed every repeat accident from each issue of the Safety Letter it would be a sad thin document indeed.

If this site is to remain relevant, I believe we need free rein to evaluate these events, trash the pilots as or if required, ridicule those who need ridiculing and NEVER MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AGAIN! If you are so sensitive that you can't take the heat from a mistake, you are in the wrong industry because WE ARE ALL WATCHING!

Your only job is to keep your passengers safe. Yes, its nice if we can complete the flight and make some money for our employers, but it is a minor consideration and should never conflict with your primary job. Never.

I'll bet after that Keystone event, 'Ho drivers all over Canada check their fuel more carefully. You only have to say "Keystone" and everybody in this industry knows what you are talking about. That sort of publicity and notoriety is absolutely necessary if you are not to repeat these stupid, chickensh*t accidents over and over and over and over.........................

[reality check]

If this site is to remain relevant, I believe we need free rein to evaluate these events, trash the pilots as or if required, ridicule those who need ridiculing and NEVER MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AGAIN! If you are so sensitive that you can't take the heat from a mistake, you are in the wrong industry because WE ARE ALL WATCHING!

Are you 12?

Do you have any idea about interpersonal relationships? Do you have any idea how to convey a point in a fashion that is palatable so that you stand a chance of getting somewhere with it? Is this how you treat your co-pilot/Capt or co-workers when you see a mistake? You're not making a very good case mate, even if your intensions are correct.

[Tim]

If this site is to remain relevant, I believe we need free rein to evaluate these events, trash the pilots as or if required, ridicule those who need ridiculing and NEVER MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AGAIN! If you are so sensitive that you can't take the heat from a mistake, you are in the wrong industry because WE ARE ALL WATCHING!

Are you 12?

Do you have any idea about interpersonal relationships? Do you have any idea how to convey a point in a fashion that is palatable so that you stand a chance of getting somewhere with it? Is this how you treat your co-pilot/Capt or co-workers when you see a mistake? You're not making a very good case mate, even if your intensions are correct.

i could not disagree more. not only is it ok, but people SHOULD be called out on their mistakes. the way the conversation goes depends on how willing they are to discuss, accept and learn from the situation.

[reality check]

i could not disagree more. not only is it ok, but people SHOULD be called out on their mistakes. the way the conversation goes depends on how willing they are to discuss, accept and learn from the situation.

Cute,

And this, ladies and gentlemen is why aviation is so utterly dysfunctional. If "ridicule" is the only way you know how to communicate, you're going to accomplish little, if any good. You can "disagree" all you like, but if you don't know the difference between "calling out," perhaps even analyzing and learning from mistakes, and "ridicule," oh never mind.

"Tim" eh? As in "Tiny Tim?" As in "Tiny in the brain Tim?" Just asking. Oh, I see exactly what you mean now, ridicule is fun if nothing else. Didn't make you come around any better, now did it? Didn't think so.

[Tim]

"Tim" eh? As in "Tiny Tim?" As in "Tiny in the brain Tim?" Just asking. Oh, I see exactly what you mean now, ridicule is fun if nothing else. Didn't make you come around any better, now did it? Didn't think so.

weren't we talking about an accident and trying to learn something from it?

here's what makes calling people out ok: it prevents furthur accidents. i could care less about your delicate sensibilities if they are going to get in the way of safety. hows that for a reality check?

[reality check]

Tim,

I'm not really sure what to say to you, other than re-read what has been written paying particular attention to the language used. You may just find something in there worth looking at.

You have given no "reality check," but what you have accomplished is to simply prove a point, my point. If you don't get it after your re-examination, then I will spell it out for you, in the name of safety of course.

[Tim]

you started your argument for being constructive and not ridiculing by asking xsbank:

Are you 12?

and then to my response:

Cute

are you so blind you dont even see you did the very thing you are saying not to do? TWICE? you tried to make a point and opened with dispariging comments. and whats even better, heres a little line from your first post to xs

Do you have any idea how to convey a point in a fashion that is palatable so that you stand a chance of getting somewhere with it?

courtesy of dictionary.com:

hyp·o·crite   /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/
–noun
1.a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2.a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude,esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements

[reality check]

you started your argument for being constructive and not ridiculing by asking xsbank:

Are you 12?

and then to my response:

Cute

are you so blind you dont even see you did the very thing you are saying not to do? TWICE? you tried to make a point and opened with dispariging comments. and whats even better, heres a little line from your first post to xs

Do you have any idea how to convey a point in a fashion that is palatable so that you stand a chance of getting somewhere with it?

courtesy of dictionary.com:

hyp·o·crite   /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/
–noun
1.a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2.a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude,esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements

Wow, it really is THIS easy, no wonder you guys subscribe to it, I had no idea.

Ok - Read Veeeeeery slowly now (yes, still ridiculing you):

I.
AM.
PROVING.
A.
POINT.
Now, from the last comma forward, the experiment is over.

Thank you, you've done a wonderful job of demonstrating just how utterly ridiculous the notion of ridicule is as a tool to further our stated cause of improving safety. People makes mistakes, that is human nature - my point one last time is if you expect to get through to people who make mistakes, or others whom you are trying to "educate" about mistakes that have happened, ridicule is not the tool for the job, nor is "trashing" as Mr. Bank stated. It tunes people out, just like I so easily made you tune me out to the topic at hand, and to others who are watching, it makes you look petty, juvenile and foolish.

Not the way to garner respect or have people actually pay attention to what you're saying, which may or may not actually save a life some day. Think about it.

[Tim]

got it. its not the way to make a point. unless its reality check making the point. understood.

[Doc]

If this site is to remain relevant, I believe we need free rein to evaluate these events, trash the pilots as or if required, ridicule those who need ridiculing and NEVER MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AGAIN! If you are so sensitive that you can't take the heat from a mistake, you are in the wrong industry because WE ARE ALL WATCHING!

Are you 12?

Do you have any idea about interpersonal relationships? Do you have any idea how to convey a point in a fashion that is palatable so that you stand a chance of getting somewhere with it? Is this how you treat your co-pilot/Capt or co-workers when you see a mistake? You're not making a very good case mate, even if your intensions are correct.

So reality check, you're more into the warm and fuzzy, politically correct, gentler approach? So you had an accident, poor thing, left the gear up (or whatever), it's alright, nobody blames you. After all "it could happen to anybody" you're only human, and all humans make mistakes. Forget the fact the whole incident was caused by YOU HAVING YOUR HEAD UP YOUR ASS, it's okay, have a warm milk, we all love you, EVEN THOUGH EVERYBODY ON BOARD COULD HAVE BEEN KILLED BECAUSE YOUR ARE AN IDIOT, don't let that worry you. Here, mommy will make all the mean, nasty avcanada posters (xsbank, Doc, Tim, etc.,etc.,)leave you alone.

And the beat goes on....AND SO DO THE ACCIDENTS/INCIDENTS.

Is NOBODY getting this? Touchy feely doesn't work!

[Kilo-Kilo]

I'm so glad you're sticking around Doc. That post made my whole day!

[. ._]

I think it would be funny if this thread goes longer than the original.

(Don't get me wrong. I'll try my best to land with the wheels in the proper position, and get 'er stopped in less than '10,000.)

-istp

[reality check]

You guys are truly pathetic. Really, really, pathetic. Especially you, Doc.

Not only can you not decipher simple language, you seem unable to grasp some rather mundane lines of thought. Yes, that is an insult, just to be clear.

Who said anything about "touchy feely?" "Warm milk?" WTF are you talking about, how old are you, have you lost the plot already??? I think so, b/c that's not even what has been discussed. But hey, on the bright side you have Kilo-kilo skipping alongside like that little dog in the Sylvester cartoon, niece used to love that one when she was little.

Once again you try to lamely divert attention from the fact you - despite your honorable intentions - have no idea how to accomplish what it is you're setting out to do. This board is littered with threads where you jump up and down, screaming and yelling to little effect. Just use the search button, it's not hard to find them. It's too bad you have a bunch of little groupies like Kilo-kilo and the gang, I hope I never find one of you in my cockpit.

I am talking about effective communication techniques (your hardline approach full of ridicule and trash really seems to do the job on gear up stats in Canada, now doesn't it? Brutal). If you guys worked for me and berated or ridiculed fellow pilots for easily correctible mistakes you'd be out the door so fast your heads would spin. Yes, you'd make a fabulous training Capt. for some lucky operator No, there is nothing between your bullshit and Lol, "warm milk," is there?

It's no wonder this industry has degenerated over the last 25yrs into what we now have, attitudes and egos like the ones on display here are as far as one needs to look. That this thread has been allowed drift so far from your original point is comical - yes, attacking me is such a priority. The best part is, we all want the same thing, a safer industry, yet you continue to trumpet your ineffective but manly sounding method of teaching - why don't you call AC or WJ and sell them your techniques? I'm sure you and Mr. Bank could make a pretty penny training, don't you? Would you get very far? Doubt it. (I would Care-entee if I could)

[Doc]

You guys are truly pathetic. Really, really, pathetic. Especially you, Doc.

Not only can you not decipher simple language, you seem unable to grasp some rather mundane lines of thought. Yes, that is an insult, just to be clear.

Who said anything about "touchy feely?" "Warm milk?" WTF are you talking about, how old are you, have you lost the plot already??? I think so, b/c that's not even what has been discussed. But hey, on the bright side you have Kilo-kilo skipping alongside like that little dog in the Sylvester cartoon, niece used to love that one when she was little.

Once again you try to lamely divert attention from the fact you - despite your honorable intentions - have no idea how to accomplish what it is you're setting out to do. This board is littered with threads where you jump up and down, screaming and yelling to little effect. Just use the search button, it's not hard to find them. It's too bad you have a bunch of little groupies like Kilo-kilo and the gang, I hope I never find one of you in my cockpit.

I am talking about effective communication techniques (your hardline approach full of ridicule and trash really seems to do the job on gear up stats in Canada, now doesn't it? Brutal). If you guys worked for me and berated or ridiculed fellow pilots for easily correctible mistakes you'd be out the door so fast your heads would spin. Yes, you'd make a fabulous training Capt. for some lucky operator No, there is nothing between your bullshit and Lol, "warm milk," is there?

It's no wonder this industry has degenerated over the last 25yrs into what we now have, attitudes and egos like the ones on display here are as far as one needs to look. That this thread has been allowed drift so far from your original point is comical - yes, attacking me is such a priority. The best part is, we all want the same thing, a safer industry, yet you continue to trumpet your ineffective but manly sounding method of teaching - why don't you call AC or WJ and sell them your techniques? I'm sure you and Mr. Bank could make a pretty penny training, don't you? Would you get very far? Doubt it. (I would Care-entee if I could)

The bitterness. Enjoy it.

[reality check]

The bitterness. Enjoy it.

Haha, you pay yourself far too much credit, no bitterness at all, just amazement. Lots of amazement at the drivel on here most of the time. I just forwarded this on IM to a close friend who is in the training dept at one of the large US carriers, she asked if I was having her on. Unfortunately, I had to say no.

If you feel like having a real chat about this sometime, PM me, until then I'll pass. I Really have a lot better things to do than piss into the wind on here with people who are more concerned with confrontation than solving some of the many issues we face. You may now have your little stage back Doc.

Fly safe everyone, or in fear, or just safe. Safe will do actually.

[Doc]

The bitterness. Enjoy it.

Haha, you pay yourself far too much credit, no bitterness at all, just amazement. Lots of amazement at the drivel on here most of the time. I just forwarded this on IM to a close friend who is in the training dept at one of the large US carriers, she asked if I was having her on. Unfortunately, I had to say no.

If you feel like having a real chat about this sometime, PM me, until then I'll pass. I Really have a lot better things to do than piss into the wind on here with people who are more concerned with confrontation than solving some of the many issues we face. You may now have your little stage back Doc.

Fly safe everyone, or in fear, or just safe. Safe will do actually.

Wish I cared.

[reality check]

Of course you don't. That's what narcissism is all about, isn't it?

I'd say g'night, but you can do it yourself.

[crazy_aviator]

you can speak wise words and even rebuke to a wise and mature man and he will listen intently,thankfully, analyse it and apply the wisdom towards proper solutions ,,,A fool will not accept sound advice and wisdom and will come after you and cut you down, a fool rarely learns from his mistakes ,,,,there is a difference in communicating to a wise man and a fool ,,,look in your bible for assistance there folks

[planett]

Please don't look in the bible for guidance.

['effin hippie]

anonymity + audience = total dick-wad

That's not my line, but dudes, this is the internet. Suck it up.

Despite my best intentions I occasionally say things here I would never say to a persons face. Surprise surprise.

A frank discussion forum is more valuable than peoples feelings. When people get harsh about mistakes it is less about punishing the pilots behind the latest prang than reminding the rest of the less-experienced, more-lucky or even just-plain-better (yah I said it) just how stupid they are going to feel if the red lights pop out of the snow at 100 kts or a wall of trees looms up in the landing lights.

It seems like it gets easier every year in this industry to forget that most of the elements within it are trying to kill us. I assumed I was one of the better for half a decade; turns out I was lucky for a while, now I just keep noticing more factors I really need to have a better handle on.

Anyway, one shocking truth is that this forum is the closest thing to a collective expression of values that our profession has in this country, and I applaud every a**hole who contributes.
Anyone who whines about a little rough treatment on here is clearly a supporter of the Human Rights Tribunal and a rampant communist.
This is what we pilots look like on the internet. The internet is not a flattering light. Tough.

Huzzah!

ef