Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

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tedcuthbert
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by tedcuthbert »

I've been on the fence on this issue for a while, I used to wear a Mustang, but haven't been lately, guess I got a bit cynical after seeing some people wear life jackets just for the appearance that they were being safe. But mostly, after much reading & research, I saw very few situations where wearing a life vest could have saved a life (such as - you are able to egress, the plane sinks so there is nothing to hold onto, and you are injured or weak so cant tread water). I also agree it could impede exiting the aircraft, and going back to retrieve passengers. In my view becoming trapped in the aircraft is the biggest killer with plane-in-water accidents. I'm now giving more thorough pre-flight briefings on how to get out of the plane.
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Bushav8er
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by Bushav8er »

CD wrote:Good point tiny...

A regulatory change proposal was made back in 2003 to remove the definition from the regulation at 101.01 in order to be able to accept all of the standards referenced in 551.403:

NPA 2003-026 - Interpretation - "Deletion of Definition for Personal Flotation Device"

It looks like the CARAC process worked in that it was accepted by the technical committee at the June 2003 meeting and the CARC at their October meeting:

CARAC NPA System: NPA Details

Now, it appears to be stuck waiting for a legal review and publication in the Canada Gazette... Like so many other regulatory change proposals, it looks like this one (and the other 23 regulatory changes in the same RU file) hasn't been deemed important enough to get through the legal review by the Department of Justice. :?

I guess the lawyers must have been spending their time on the 406 ELT issue instead..... :wink:

Still, the UL1180 Type II PFD is a good piece of kit and there doesn't seem to be anything preventing individuals from wearing them (provided that there are TSO'd life preservers on board as well :roll: ).
The CAR doesn't necessarily need to be changed if the Canadian General Standards Board Standard 65-GP-11 itself is changed. I went to check it out, and it is listed as "New" but funny thing is you need to login - pay subscription required! This is for the "Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety, Canada".

http://www.ccohs.ca/legislation/cgsb.html

Many different sites for the general public reference that Standard but unless everyone pays to view it NO one can know what it says.

Maybe we are okay to use CAR 551, but can't tell? :rolleyes:
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CD
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by CD »

Bushav8er...

The site that you are referencing lists documents as "new" as a default setting when you visit. The actual CGSB website contains the list of their active standards:

Canadian General Standards Board (CGSB)

The CGSB 65-GP-11 standard is from 1972 and has itself been replaced by other, more modern standards (such as CAN/CGSB-65.11-M88 and CAN/CGSB-65.15-M88). If you have one of these old inherently bouyant PFDs meeting the 1972 standard, then of course you could use it as it meets the regulatory definition from Part I of the CARs.

However, the newer standards reflected in chapter 551 of the airworthiness manual provide additional flexibility and choice, including inflatable devices. The problem remains that the regulation takes precedence over the standards in the airworthiness manual so until the Part I definition is formally changed, the inflatable PFDs manufactured to the newer standards cannot be used on their own to comply with the section 602.62 regulation.

As far as getting access to a copy, yes, you would likely have to pay for it. Manufacturers of these devices make the purchase as they need to design the equipment to meet the minimum performance specifications in the standard. However, it's possible that a college or university library may also have copies available in their collection.
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Bushav8er
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by Bushav8er »

The site that you are referencing lists documents as "new" as a default setting when you visit.
First visit, I should have thought of that.

If something is referenced as 'see that it meets XYZ' - I just like know the details.

This is a CAN-TSO-C13f approved Life Preserver - which is not defined by CAR 101.01 BUT is allowed by 602.62 & 551.401

Life Preserver
602.62 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off or a landing on water in an aircraft or operate an aircraft over water beyond a point where the aircraft could reach shore in the event of an engine failure, unless a life preserver, individual flotation device or personal flotation device is carried for each person on board.
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ahramin
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by ahramin »

602.62 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off or a landing on water in an aircraft or operate an aircraft over water beyond a point where the aircraft could reach shore in the event of an engine failure, unless a life preserver, individual flotation device or personal flotation device is carried for each person on board.
personal flotation device means a personal flotation device that meets the standards set out in the Canadian General Standards Board Standard 65-GP-11, entitled Standard for: Personal Flotation Devices, published in October 1972; (vêtement de flottaison individuel)
So personal flotation device is defined, but there's no definition of life preserver or individual flotation device. What are these and are there standards to them?
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photofly
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by photofly »

Background info:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/d ... n-1324.htm

A life preserver (as far as I know) will keep your head out of the water even if you're unconscious. Not so a PFD.

EDIT: ah, there it is-

551.401 Life Saving Equipment Over Water - Life Preservers

(a) Introduction

This section contains standards of airworthiness for Life Preservers required by CAR 602.62.

(b) Definitions

In this section, a "life preserver" is a flotation device, which when properly worn by a person, will provide adequate buoyant force to support the body in a safe and stable position in water and provide a self-righting force to maintain the face above the water; (gilet de sauvetage).
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by PilotDAR »

A life preserver (as far as I know) will keep your head out of the water even if you're unconscious. Not so a PFD.
Correct. PFD's simply provide additional bouyancy, with no requirement to roll you face up. My understanding is also that an aviation approved lifejacket must be dual chamber, and have a water activated light, and whistle, though I know this from training, not 'cause I can pinpoint the requirement in a regulation.
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by LousyFisherman »

On floats, I wear a non-certified boating Mustang PFD with the automatic activator removed. I have another one for my passenger . Both are very comforatable and do not interfere with movement in any way. There are 2 certified life jackets in the plane, but I doubt they will ever be used.

I would much rather have a PFD with no paper around my neck rather than a certified life jacket somewhere in the plane that I may not be able to reach.

YMMV
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Re: Wearing a life vest while flying on floats

Post by Meatservo »

I don't want to wade into the pros/cons or anything, but from a strictly logical point of view, if a passenger asks why you get the good vest and they don't, you can earnestly tell them that because they spend maybe one hour a year in floatplanes, and you spend several hundred hours a year in float planes, the odds are definitely in the passenger's favour, therefore the pilot deserves the good vest!
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