Ornge

[woneill_ornge]

Clearly management doesn't think pilots are very important, or that they need to do a very good job.

I’d like to address this comment – Ornge is widely-regarded, and rightfully so, as offering compensation to pilots that goes well-above industry standards, from both a salary and benefits perspective. Our model of compensation is also primarily oriented around safety, and never incentivizing dangerous behavior of any kind.

Accordingly, to suggest that there is a management culture at Ornge that does not consider pilots or their work important is simply and patently false.

[Driving Rain]

Lets read between the lines here. The fact that not even the Chief Pilot or the Aviation Operations Manager made 6 figures one has to wonder just where ordinary line pilots fall on the wage scale at Ornge.
Two people one a paramedic and the other a pilot apply for employment at Ornge. Both go through a thorough interview process and are hired. The paramedic joins a union, the pilot coughs up a $10,000 training bond and doesn't join a collective bargaining unit of any kind. The paramedic has the patients life in his hands while on the aircraft that's understood by all. The pilot has every ones life in his hands.
So when Mr W. O'Neil writes

Our model of compensation is also primarily oriented around safety, and never incentivizing dangerous behavior of any kind.

he is absolutely correct. If the pilot were unfortunate enough to bend an aircraft they face financial ruin. Talk about your level playing field!

[woneill_ornge]

Lets read between the lines here. The fact that not even the Chief Pilot or the Aviation Operations Manager made 6 figures one has to wonder just where ordinary line pilots fall on the wage scale at Ornge.
Two people one a paramedic and the other a pilot apply for employment at Ornge. Both go through a thorough interview process and are hired. The paramedic joins a union, the pilot coughs up a $10,000 training bond and doesn't join a collective bargaining unit of any kind. The paramedic has the patients life in his hands while on the aircraft that's understood by all. The pilot has every ones life in his hands.
So when Mr W. O'Neil writes

Our model of compensation is also primarily oriented around safety, and never incentivizing dangerous behavior of any kind.

he is absolutely correct. If the pilot were unfortunate enough to bend an aircraft they face financial ruin. Talk about your level playing field!

Driving Rain,

I posted this recently in another thread, but there is no $10,000 training bond – this information is outdated.

[lionheart27]

Anybody got the number of that Paramedic School...I might need that!

[caesar]

I think many posters on this forum are unaware of how Ornge and Ornge Air are organized. A few thoughts to conceder:

1. Ornge employs paramedics and is a provincial organization
   Ornge Air employs Pilots and is a Federally registered and regulated company
   As a provincial entity Ornge is required by law to disclose those employees who make over $100 000 in salary AND BENEFITS combined
   Ornge Air, because they are federally regulated, do not have to report salaries in the same way as provincial government organizations
   Ornge Air has only been in operation for six months - that would mean someone's base salary would have to be $200 000 to make the list for last year - ONLY IF THEY HAD TO REPORT IT - which they don't
   Ornge Air pilots are members of the Office and Professional Employees International Union (OPEIU) & are negotiating their first contract right now
   I don't know why there isn't a pilot's career section on Ornge's website, but it may be because they are not hiring at the moment.

Seriously, stop comparing medics and pilots. They are two different jobs. It would be like comparing a respiratory therapist and a nurse. Or TV camera man and the news anchor. Same sector, different work.

[mattedfred]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publication ... erp10.html

Ornge AUGER PATRICK Critical Care Paramedic $117,067.89 $224.16
Ornge BEAUDOIN MARCIE Critical Care Paramedic $108,612.03 $224.16
Ornge BECHARD MARC Advance Care Paramedic $106,117.73 $181.56
Ornge BENOIT JEAN-FRANCOIS Critical Care Paramedic $117,332.77 $205.15
Ornge BIRD ROBERT Critical Care Paramedic $110,073.91 $224.16
Ornge BRADLEY DONALD Operation Manager $104,925.63 $546.47
Ornge CARSS JEFFREY Regional Operation Manager $116,959.93 $231.48
Ornge CHAD MICHAEL Critical Care Paramedic $106,667.72 $224.16
Ornge CHANNON RICHARD Primary Care Paramedic $104,323.99 $181.56
Ornge CLEMENTS MATTHEW Critical Care Paramedic $102,020.56 $232.68
Ornge COYNE JOHN Operation Manager $101,454.87 $212.04
Ornge DASTI DAVID Critical Care Paramedic Rotational $121,217.13 $232.68
Ornge DAVIS DOUGLAS Communication Officer $101,353.47 $183.89
Ornge DEWAR RAYMOND Critical Care Paramedic $105,625.33 $232.68
Ornge DIAMOND WAYDE Critical Care Paramedic $111,696.36 $232.68
Ornge DONEFF BRANDON Critical Care Paramedic $118,588.60 $232.68
Ornge DUGUAY DAN Critical Care Paramedic $103,148.72 $224.16
Ornge FARQUHAR STEPHEN Vice President, Operations $255,874.72 $398.70
Ornge FAWCETT DENNIS Communication Officer $104,752.94 $183.89
Ornge FLETCHER JEFFREY Advance Care Paramedic $109,131.40 $205.92
Ornge FORGET ROGER Operation Manager $129,844.62 $218.16
Ornge GAGNON KARLA Critical Care Paramedic $115,425.47 $232.68
Ornge GAUTHIER LEE Critical Care Paramedic $103,217.85 $216.89
Ornge GIVEN LINSEY Advance Care Paramedic $107,431.24 $181.56
Ornge GOURLEY JASON Advance Care Paramedic $106,449.36 $181.56
Ornge GRAVELINE ROGER Communication Officer $120,898.60 $174.51
Ornge GROPP ANITA Advance Care Paramedic $103,924.66 $181.56
Ornge HANCHARUK JENNIFER Critical Care Paramedic $111,943.91 $168.12
Ornge HECKER BRUCE Communication Officer $113,575.24 $168.41
Ornge HOLBROOK JOHN Registered Nurse $101,325.42 $224.16
Ornge HUNT ANDREW Critical Care Paramedic $119,580.50 $231.97
Ornge HUVER MARK Critical Care Paramedic $109,701.96 $227.00
Ornge HYNES JEFFREY Critical Care Paramedic $100,321.32 $205.92
Ornge IDE JAMES Critical Care Paramedic $112,894.56 $224.16
Ornge IZSAK NICOLE Critical Care Paramedic $104,109.41 $231.26
Ornge JACKSON MARK Critical Care Paramedic $102,119.66 $224.16
Ornge LANG TREVOR Critical Care Paramedic $101,974.05 $224.16
Ornge LAVERGNE NATALIE Critical Care Paramedic $112,044.40 $232.68
Ornge LAVOIE ROBBIN Regional Operation Manager $112,331.13 $231.48
Ornge LEE JONATHAN Critical Care Paramedic $112,304.54 $232.68
Ornge LEPINE THOMAS Chief Operation Officer $285,829.11 $19,099.04
Ornge LONGEWAY MICHAEL Advance Care Paramedic $114,189.17 $181.56
Ornge MALONE SIAN Advance Care Paramedic $118,854.83 $181.56
Ornge MARSHALL ROBERT Advance Care Paramedic $104,685.20 $205.92
Ornge MAYNARD DAVID Critical Care Paramedic $102,110.08 $224.16
Ornge MCARTHUR BRADLEY Critical Care Paramedic $109,169.87 $232.68
Ornge MCINTOSH ELISABETE Communication Officer $110,074.55 $582.91
Ornge MCLEISH SHAWN Critical Care Paramedic $118,227.76 $224.16
Ornge MCNAB SCOTT Critical Care Paramedic $127,900.82 $224.16
Ornge MEKIS ROBERT Critical Care Paramedic $130,351.23 $216.84
Ornge MELIS CHRISTIAN Operation Manager $110,490.95 $218.16
Ornge MIDDAUGH MATTHEW Critical Care Paramedic $110,991.47 $224.16
Ornge MILES JASON Advance Care Paramedic $103,238.49 $192.23
Ornge MOFFAT GREGOR Critical Care Paramedic $126,097.29 $232.68
Ornge NOBLE DAVID Communication Officer $103,010.61 $178.39
Ornge OAKE-VECCHIATO JOANNE Vice President, Clinical Affairs $161,855.77 $305.50
Ornge ONODERA DOUGLAS Critical Care Paramedic $123,369.24 $224.16
Ornge O'SHAUGHNESSY DAVID Critical Care Paramedic $124,041.29 $232.68
Ornge PENNER ARDEN Advance Care Paramedic $101,071.07 $190.71
Ornge PEVERE JASON Critical Care Paramedic $101,303.41 $205.48
Ornge PITSINIGAS ADAM Communication Officer $107,054.06 $169.02
Ornge POWELL MHARI Advance Care Paramedic $117,648.50 $157.24
Ornge PRITCHARD JODIE Critical Care Paramedic $112,814.44 $224.87
Ornge QUENNEVILLE DENNIS Critical Care Paramedic $107,426.92 $224.16
Ornge RASHOTTE MICHAEL Critical Care Paramedic $101,033.27 $211.50
Ornge RICE GLENN Critical Care Paramedic $124,081.15 $232.68
Ornge RITCHIE TODD Critical Care Paramedic $100,158.31 $224.16
Ornge ROBILLARD DAN Critical Care Paramedic $122,747.75 $224.16
Ornge RUSSELL CHRISTOPHER Program Manager, Special Operation $111,035.28 $218.16
Ornge RUTLEDGE SCOTT Critical Care Paramedic $101,010.55 $224.16
Ornge SAWADSKY BRUCE Chief Of Staff $225,842.38 $35,462.08
Ornge SHEWAN RONDA Critical Care Paramedic $101,475.72 $15,168.12
Ornge SOUCIE JEREMIAH Critical Care Paramedic $110,809.57 $232.68
Ornge STARCEVIC CHRISTINA Advance Care Paramedic $100,179.66 $181.56
Ornge STEARY DUGG Critical Care Paramedic $102,235.65 $224.16
Ornge STEINMAN MICHAEL Critical Care Paramedic $104,453.57 $224.16
Ornge STEPHEN ALAN Director, Ornge Communication Center $126,612.71 $0.00
Ornge STEVENS BRYAN Critical Care Paramedic $103,588.70 $224.16
Ornge ST-JEAN FRANCOIS Regional Operation Manager $119,450.45 $231.48
Ornge STOREY TREVOR Critical Care Paramedic $132,230.51 $205.92
Ornge TEED SEAN Critical Care Paramedic $105,941.48 $224.16
Ornge TELKY CHARLES Critical Care Paramedic $107,795.90 $224.16
Ornge TERANISHI ROBERT Critical Care Paramedic $125,891.07 $224.16
Ornge TREMBLAY MARC Manager, Medical Affairs $120,766.24 $522.08
Ornge TREMBLE MATTHEW Critical Care Paramedic $138,782.71 $224.16
Ornge VANHOUWELINGEN ROBERT Critical Care Paramedic $110,514.64 $224.16
Ornge VEILLEUX DARIN Advance Care Paramedic $107,583.21 $205.92
Ornge WADDEN DAVID Critical Care Paramedic $107,722.34 $224.16
Ornge WAGNER MARY Critical Care Paramedic $129,239.54 $229.13
Ornge WIEBE STEPHEN Advance Care Paramedic $105,831.46 $205.92
Ornge WILKIE SANDRA Acting Director, Ornge Communication Center $110,009.37 $220.13
Ornge WILLIAMS TARA Critical Care Paramedic $113,365.35 $224.16
Ornge WISMER JOHN Critical Care Paramedic $115,820.93 $231.97
Ornge YELLE RICHARD Manager, Medical Affairs $109,539.15 $454.33
Ornge ZANON PETER Critical Care Paramedic $138,244.15 $224.16

[Driving Rain]

I think many posters on this forum are unaware of how Ornge and Ornge Air are organized. A few thoughts to conceder:

1. Ornge employs paramedics and is a provincial organization
   Ornge Air employs Pilots and is a Federally registered and regulated company
   As a provincial entity Ornge is required by law to disclose those employees who make over $100 000 in salary AND BENEFITS combined
   Ornge Air, because they are federally regulated, do not have to report salaries in the same way as provincial government organizations
   Ornge Air has only been in operation for six months - that would mean someone's base salary would have to be $200 000 to make the list for last year - ONLY IF THEY HAD TO REPORT IT - which they don't
   Ornge Air pilots are members of the Office and Professional Employees International Union (OPEIU) & are negotiating their first contract right now
   I don't know why there isn't a pilot's career section on Ornge's website, but it may be because they are not hiring at the moment.

Seriously, stop comparing medics and pilots. They are two different jobs. It would be like comparing a respiratory therapist and a nurse. Or TV camera man and the news anchor. Same sector, different work.

The fact that Ornge's pilots are federally regulated has zip to do with whether or not they have to report 6 figure salaries. The Ontario Governments own air service is also federally regulated and they report on pilots who earn in access of 6 figures. Federal regulation has nothing what so ever to do with it.
I'm surprized and happy for the pilots @ Ornge. Joining the union was a good move. Now if they can get a defined benefit pension plan and few other perks flying for Ornge will become a destination career.
DR
I'll giving the list close scrutiny next year.

[woneill_ornge]

Mr. woneill_ornge,

If; as you suggest, flight crew/pilot is a respected position within the Ornge organization why does it not appear as a career path on the Ornge website? Just wondering why Ornge would chose not to highlight it as an option?

MapleFlag,

My assumption is that you’re talking about this page on our site: http://www.ornge.ca/Careers/Pages/Excit ... Ornge.aspx

Ornge has different recruiting strategies for different kinds of positions. There are many, many careers at Ornge that you don’t see profiled on that page in addition to pilots, and inclusion or exclusion on it is not an issue of respect or disrespect. The careers posted there are the ones for which there is a considerable amount of ongoing recruitment that makes such generalized website information an asset, whereas in the case of aviation (and elsewhere) it is more efficient to tailor efforts specifically when we are hiring in these areas.

[woneill_ornge]

That seems like a reasonable answer, thank you. I guess who might be interested would be best advised to monitior the AvCanada jobs forum ?

Yes – you can also check our career opportunities page at http://www.ornge.ca/Careers/Pages/Caree ... ities.aspx.

[oldncold]

3 in early may 1 by mutual agreement 2 by company directive. not returning . ornge air has hit (air bravo corp) bread n butter of lower cost efficent private enterprize medvac biz hard. ornge using ontario tax payers money with over inflated salary over managed over egoed [prima donna's] to boot,.

[stef]

over egoed [prima donna's]

I've met a few Ornge guys around the bush and that certainly doesn't apply to the guys I've met.

[Rudy]

oldncold, Are you talking about Ornge captain`s ``over inflated salary``? I read it was 70-75k. Seems pretty average or maybe even a little below. Aren`t Bravo guys getting more than that? I know the Thunder guys are. Or maybe you`re talking copilots which I think Ornge pays a little bit better. Maybe you`re talking about the middle-management or flight nurses which get way more everywhere.

[aftstrake]

edit

[Doc]

Don't lose touch with the FACT that Ornge's mandate was to screw the private sector. Yes it is/was! It clearly states so right in their manifesto. They clearly state the private sector is/was not providing the service up to the standards they can provide, therefore, the private sector must be screwed. Sorry Bravo. Them's the facts!

[Salt]

Watch out Doc, ORNGE might go after the court date runs next once it gets through with the MEDEVAC industry!

[Doc]

Watch out Doc, ORNGE might go after the court date runs next once it gets through with the MEDEVAC industry!

COURT PARTY WON'T GET ON A SINGLE ENGINE AIRPLANE!!!

[woneill_ornge]

Don't lose touch with the FACT that Ornge's mandate was to screw the private sector. Yes it is/was! It clearly states so right in their manifesto. They clearly state the private sector is/was not providing the service up to the standards they can provide, therefore, the private sector must be screwed. Sorry Bravo. Them's the facts!

Doc,

Our mandate is to run the best system of transport medicine for the province that we can, both now and for the challenges that health care in Ontario will face in the future.

In the long run, as I’ve discussed in the past, it is far more cost-effective for this system to be run by an entity (such as us) that is not-for-profit, and which has its own vehicular assets, both for air and land. However, other carriers that we contract are also an enormous part of what we do, and will continue to be – it takes many, many aircraft, and the demand for transports will only increase as the years go on. Ornge also has the expertise to manage these relationships with other carriers in a way that optimizes their effectiveness, so we have an enormous role to play in that, even outside of managing our own fleet.

We’re not out to ‘screw’ anybody – we are fulfilling an obligation to help literally millions of people, just as every other facet of the public health system is, and we do it every single day.

It’s clear that you have a problem with this, but unclear what exactly that problem is. Ornge transports are paid for by citizens of this province; we, in turn, are trying to make that as efficient and excellent as possible on their behalf, both presently and to an even greater degree in the future. Other carriers are and will continue to be a huge part of this. We are a progressive and compassionate employer for all of our staff, aviators included. We do all of these things, ultimately, to help sick and injured people, and nothing more.

Those are the facts.

[Just another canuck]

Ornge, I think you understand completely what Doc is saying... companies like Voyageur and Thunder Air for example, have been providing medevac services for years in North Western Ontario. They have/will now lose that contract and therefore, a large amount of revenue. Is Ornge going to pay them for lost revenue? No. Ornge's attitude is likely "Oh, well, they'll get over it."

We all know Doc has been in NWO for sometime and is presently feeling some pain for the companies around him who have obviously been hurt by your introduction to the industry. Once in awhile I agree with something Doc says ( , sorry Doc) and this is one of them.

You've screwed a vast number of companies... although it may be unintentional, you've still screwed them.

[oldncold]

with in the last ornge medic contract is language that states begin to take over soa bls transfers.

was not in any way slamin the pilots at all// at ornge// but the bureacracy that has exploded over there// one only has to look at the list of sunshinners (over 100k ) to realize that is your tax money. . as to the orginal thread glad to here the layoffs have stopped!!!!

[Sulako]

First of all, I have zero affiliation with Ornge, I gotta step in here for a moment and make a few points:

Only Voyageur had an actual contract with MOH - all the rest of the companies that do medevacs don't have contracts, they have what is called a 'standing offer', in which they make themselves available for medevac flights IF they are called to do so by MOH. No companies other than Voyageur were guaranteed medevacs, and that's been made very clear for ages.

Secondly, it's not like any of this came out of the blue - Ornge has been around for a few years now, and the writing has been on the wall re: medevac flying for quite some time. If businesses have ignored that and decided not to diversify into other areas of revenue besides medevac flying, how is that Ornge's fault? Ornge isn't taking over all medevac flying anyway, other carriers will still do lots of medevac flying that Ornge's fleet can't handle due to demand.

Thirdly, Ornge is a non-profit entity. As such, if they are properly managed, they will inherently be more efficient than a for-profit carrier who has to add a certain percentage to the actual cost of flights in order to satisfy owner/shareholder profit expectations. That's a huge caveat, I know, and time will tell whether or not Ornge will be more efficient/cheaper in practice than the private carriers that have traditionally done medevac flying, but as a taxpayer I'd rather put my money toward a non-profit system than a for-profit system of medevac flying - why put extra money in the pockets of private individuals to perform a public service? In flying, lots of costs are fixed and unavoidable - you have to pay for gas, you have to pay for maintenance and you have to pay for insurance. What can you squeeze in order to make a profit? Pilots! When I flew medevacs, one way that the company I worked for made money was by paying the f/o's 24k/year for the first year, then adding 2 cents/mile on year 2. At least Ornge is able to pay the pilots a living wage because they don't have to worry about ensuring a minimum profit margin goes to the owners.

Lastly, I see that much has been made of the management structure at Ornge, lots of people talking about the number of non-flying positions. Well, Ornge is taking over a substantial amount of flying that was done by what, a half-dozen carriers? How many management personnel do those carriers have in total?

[Conquest Driver]

No companies other than Voyageur were guaranteed medevacs, and that's been made very clear for ages.

It's my understanding that Bravo had a guaranteed number of hours. I think Thunder did as well, but I'm not sure.

Ornge is a non-profit entity. As such, if they are properly managed, they will inherently be more efficient than a for-profit carrier

That's a huge "if". At the end of the day I believe that ORNGE is a state entity. They might argue that, but I look at who's ultimately responsible for health care in Ontario. That's the Ontario Government. Once you establish that, all else is smoke and mirrors. Authority=responsibility. Always has, always will. The same thing applies to Nav Canada and the Federal government, but I digress.

I've seen where government control of production has taken people in the past. Take a quick look at history.

There's the argument that shareholders will demand profit. Well, maybe they will. I think they'd be thrilled to death if they could make 15% per year. ORNGE for sure is leveraged (think the $220,000,000 bond issue). Most private operators are as well. So with 2 to 1 leverage a private company would need to make 5% to keep the shareholders more than happy. That's a pretty inexpensive management consulting fee.

[Sulako]

Zero companies are guaranteed any minimum hours. Voyageur has a dedicated contract which says moh will call them for certain calls, but that's it. No standing offer carriers are guaranteed anything, not Bravo, not Thunder. That's how it's been for years and years.

[Lost Lake]

There will be other service providers providing service to Ornge, and should be able to make a huge profit from the stupid decision making at Ornge.

Unless someone can correct me, the PC12, besides being single engine, is not large enough to handle a single patient AND an incubator. How's that for foresight! A mother and her newborn can't travel together. If I was flying a two patient aircraft, I'd be asking for lots of cash!

[Morav]

Unless someone can correct me, the PC12, besides being single engine, is not large enough to handle a single patient AND an incubator.

From what I've seen Ornge's PC12s are set up for single patient transfers due to the fact that they mainly handle advanced to critical care calls. (i.e. 2 medics are needed plus loads of equipment.) The set up is rather nice and seems ergonmicaly suited for them in the back. I don't really understand what you are getting at, the PC12 has a larger cabin volume than a King Air 200. I'm pretty sure Bravo runs 2bed/4seat config and could theoretically take an incubator and patient.

[caesar]

Unless someone can correct me, the PC12, besides being single engine, is not large enough to handle a single patient AND an incubator. How's that for foresight! A mother and her newborn can't travel together. If I was flying a two patient aircraft, I'd be asking for lots of cash!

If both mom and baby require Advanced Care or higher, then four medics are needed. I'd like to see an incubator, four medics, two pilots, and a stretcher bound patient on fit ANY PC-12 or King Air. If mom is stable, she can sit in the seat provided.

Regardless, Ornge Air PC-12s are capable of being configured into dual stretcher mode.