Jazz pilots contract?

[unitholder]

180 I am glad you have made money on jazz I have to, but understand this
you have not made money because of the companies success you have made money
because of the "effiency of the markets". When I state that Jazz has only
delivered a 2.5% return it is because that calculation is taken from
the point of view of the original investment and therefore the point of
view of the company itself. IE how good of return it has paid for the use
of its capital.

The profit you are taking about is the return you made from a stock that has
already been discounted because the market sees already that it cannot sustain
itself. If you were right in your statement that "company made money" then
the unit would have a higher value than its initial issue price not a lower one.

Apple makes money its stock rises jazz barely survives its unit price has dropped.
The market's liquidity allows you to make money on other peoples loss but that
is not to the same as saying the company makes money. There are many doctors in
poor countries around the world which are saving peoples lives daily and they are
not paid what they are worth. Ones salary has to do with the market it exists in
not solely the task which is being performed.

And as any comment &/or threat you make about flying etc is just a meaningless
side issue. Everybody's career has value, but not every market has sufficient
margin to provide the money "we expect to make". There are many doctors in
poor countries around the world which are saving peoples lives daily and they are
not paid what they are worth. Ones salary has to do with the market it exists in
not solely the task which is being performed.

Odysseus: I understand some costs are passed through to air canada. Whether
they are passed through directly, phased in over time, is unclear to me but
maybe you could clarify that. Is the pass through a one to one relationship?
I have tried to find out but could not find any definitive statement.
But this point to is a red hearing, because air canada is in a worse position
than jaz and since air canada is your "economic dependent" customer it seems
like a you have built your house on sand. It is for this very reason the
re-negoitated the CPA and the markup on costs went from 16% down to 12% because
air canada was lossing its a$$

One other reason I dumped your stock was if jazz goes into a strike is their
a "non-performance" clause allowing air canada to dump jazz as an air carrier
provider. You hold the knife to management neck and air canada holds the knife
to jazz hopefully you both don't get killed.


And I have never said you do not deserve your pay I am saying is you have
a small pie to cut up their in a very tight low margin industry.


And the comments on southwest were interesting to ready and I went and reviewed
some of southwest's background information. It appears to be doing all right
but from my investing criteria, its historical performances were not anything
to write home about. But any successful company were management, employees and
investors get along and succeed has got to be commended.

PS the market is speaking and in just this week the stock has gone from 4.20 to
3.86. It is possible it could drop even more and I am hoping. So if they do cut
the distribution the stock will drop again and then it may be a good trading stock.
But always remember it is a trading stock because there is just too much risk in
airline stocks to be a long term investment 180 said it himself "have bought and
sould several times over the past 2 years".

PSS Good luck in your strike

[CanadianEh]

Unitholder,
In the airline industry, without good Management-Employee synergy everything fails. Want a good example of how things should ideally work?.. look at Lufthansa. The employees are well paid and the shareholders are well paid too. It's when management is stuffing their pockets and junior pilots are earning poverty wages that you get these labour issues and nobody wins... just look at the U.S.

[Redwine]

I wish Jazz employees could simply outright buy their own airline and run it themselves. Get rid of the greedy execs, and never worry about outside "investors". Let the frontline workers see the $$$. Jazz is profitable and is a recognized brand. Put it to good use...

[mbav8r]

UnitHolder, In these poor countries you speak of, what are the Doctor's making relative to other professions.
In this country I made more, quite abit more driving a truck, ah but it is not the glamorous life of the Pilot.
You want to talk about ROI, well 50,000+ for education and after 15 years of experience, I would have qualified for food stamps in Calgary on my first year income at Jazz. With my family of 4, based on 2002 data in 2007 I was considered a low income family, if you look at the defintion, that just the nice way to say below the poverty level. A Calgary Bus Driver makes 44636.80 for their 1st year after an intensive 21 day training program. Something has to change, and as far as Jazz not existing after this, who do you suppose would step in with 133 Aircraft and trained employees if AC were to tear up the contract? It would take years, but it would be in managements best interest to not let it get to that.
Career contract We are NOT asking!!
LOW-INCOME CUTOFFS (LICO)
2002 Low-Income Cutoffs for
Canadian Cities with 500,000+ Persons
(based on 1992 base pre-tax income)
Family Unit Size LICO
1 person $19,261
2 persons $24,077
3 persons $29,944
4 persons $36,247
5 persons $40,518
6 persons $44,789
7 or more persons $49,060
! Though definitions and measurements of poverty
in Canada vary, one of the most widely used is
the Low-Income Cutoff (LICO) level developed by
Statistics Canada.

Source: Statistics Canada. (2003, February 5). Low
income cut-offs for 2002. The Daily.

[vref]

Hey Unitholder,

I wouldn't waste anymore of your time on here. Their minds are made up. The Luftansa pilots did a one day walkout in February and the Southwest Pilots rejected the company's first TA last summer. Even with these wonderful examples of how airlines should be run, they still aren't happy. It's been the state of the industry since the 70's. That's just the way it is. Terms like "industry standard wages" are thrown around (not just by the pilots I may add) yet no one can say what they are...there just not good enough where I work. No doubt, making $40K is difficult to live in any city but unfortuneatley that's what the pay is. Pilots don't care that the company spends approx. $100K/pilot to bring them up to "Jazz standard" only to have them leave the company at a moments notice when Air Canada and Westjet have an open cattle call. That's Jazz's problem...not mine. The only reason that they want a life contract is because the days of the open cattle calls are behind us. It used to be that operating for a regional carrier was your ticket to the bigger guys. Not to say that doesn't happen anymore...just not as much. Everyone deserves a raise...no doubt. The other thing that the pilots of Jazz aren't saying is that they have recouped their payscale to where it was prior to CCAA + 1%. None of the other labour groups have done that. To say that they haven't been given a pay raise since CCAA is false. It may not be the pay raise they want...but it is a pay raise none the less. The unfortunate part of this is that I will now be furloughed if a strike happens and who do I go to to recoup my wages? At the end of the day, when there is contract ratified, there will always be a contingent that says it's not good enough. To say that flying a plane is the same as driving a bus is categorically wrong. But to make comments that management doesn't know what they're doing and a CHIMP could do what they do, I don't agree with that either. After all, a chimp has been to space but I've never heard of a chimp taking questions on any of the investors calls. Anyways, I am sure the name calling will begin after I post this but from a person who has dealt with crews for many years without them knowing who I am and what kind of education & training I have, I can assure you, they're all not as professional as they indicate on this site. That's not to say that their ultimate responsibility changes, I'm just saying that some of them are not as professional as others. I hope that both ALPA and Jazz can get a TA in the coming days. A strike doesn't benefit anyone.

[mattedfred]

let me get this straight

being forced to give up $62 million annually from our CBA since CCAA while successfully negotiating an annual decrease in the wage portion of those same concessions constitutes a raise?

perhaps it depends on one's perspective

[Localizer]

I could care less if you invest in this airline or not .. You won't be earning anything else off our back's till we get our fair share. Period.

[moreccsplease]

I don't want to use negative terms, but a few of the points this "vref" poster makes are completely out to lunch.

[CanadianEh]

I don't want to use negative terms, but a few of the points this "vref" poster makes are completely out to lunch.

More than a few...

[mbav8r]

Yep, sounds like a well educated individual, who also voted No for their last contract, just saying!!!

[Black Cat]

Unit Holder,

I have had a senior manager from jazz come into our annual ground school and tell us that the US regional carriers are our competition AND that we need to lower our rates to air canada in order to compete...and we did last year. The ONLY way that JAZZ will ever compete with those US carriers is by lowering the cost of labor. Do you know what a US regional pilot makes? Watch the link below.


THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AT JAZZ. We will shut JAZZ down for good before we let this shit happen in Canada. Spread the word among the rest of your management, oh i mean investors....CAREER CONTRACT....WE ARE NOT ASKING!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A

[one8tee]

Going to go ahead and toss out a little guess, VREF= MC

Tell you what boys... career contract or no airline. End of Story. We are NOT asking. Think we're bluffing.. try us.

180

[moreccsplease]

The solidarity amongst the pilots in this company we call Jazz is just incredible. I've been in every crew room in this country recently, and everyone is on the same page. It's also really awesome to see all of the pilots wearing their ALPA lanyards in a show of solidarity to management.

Also, fellow pilots from other airlines stopping us in the terminal and wishing us the best, maintenance engineers wishing us the best, I've even seen some ground workers for ACGHS wearing the "Career Contract" ALPA buttons on their uniform.

And then of course, the well-wishes and show of solidarity coming from the non-Jazz pilots from across the country on this board as well. It shows us all how we speak with one voice when we all stand together. We won't take concessions anymore, this profession has been damaged enough, and we're taking it back, slowly, one contract at a time, one company at a time.

Career Contract - We Are NOT Asking

[Plim Sole]

There are plenty of pilots not wearing their ALPA lanyards.
If wearing ALPA lanyards, pins and fixing stickers to the inside of the cockpit as some tits are doing was the key to negotiating, we would have had this wrapped up months ago.

[mattedfred]

I don't agree that wearing an ALPA lanyard, strike pin or placing a strike sticker on one's flight bag is the KEY to negotiating. The Family Awareness Events, P.U.B. Nights and Negots Roadshows weren't KEY to the negotiating process either.

However, all of these are tools in our strategic preparedness and strike toolbox. Would the voter participation rate or strike mandate have been as high without such unity building and educational events?

Needless to say, our MEC has asked us to demonstrate our support for our Negots Team by wearing an ALPA lanyard and strike pin.

If anyone can provide me with a reasonable argument against following the advice of our MEC in this case, I'm all ears.

[one8tee]

Unitholder:

Your last post showed you are clearly misinformed about the purpose of an incometrust fund.. which is a little odd considering investing is supposidly how you make your living..??

So here's a lesson: Generally stocks grow because companies tend to take their profits, and reinvest them in the company.. thus allowing the company to earn higher profits, making them worth more and the price of the stock goes up.

Income trusts like jaz.un instead take those profits, and deliver them directly to the unitholders (called a dividend). The reason the stock doesn't fly up in price is because the profits are taken out of the company and delivered to you. Investers don't invest in income trusts because they expect the stock to grow (necessarily) they invest because of the ROI in the form on div yield. It is now at 15% and has been that or greater for 5 years. Even if you bought it at 7/ unit, held it until now and didn't sell it you would still be recieving at least ther 15% based on your original investment.. yes if you sell it at a loss that obviously hurts your ROI but thats not the point.

Seems a little odd for a pilot to have to explain this to an 'invester". Its obvious to me that if we were as incompetent and ignorant in our field of work there would be a lot of dead passengers.. where as you only have to come on avcanada and tell us all to take a concessionary contract because you happen to be an idiot.

In Unity.


180

[teacher]

My hope is that our Jazz pilot group will inspire others to take steps to finally arrest the decent of this profession. Enough is enough and it starts here and now.

[bowling]

[quote="teacher"]My hope is that our Jazz pilot group will inspire others to take steps to finally arrest the decent of this profession. Enough is enough and it starts here and now.[/quote]

[RFN]

Hey bowling:

You are cool.

[teacher]

You're on crack right? Thought so.

NONE of that has anything to do with the pilots FYI even though many of us wish we had that kind of power. Do you really think we choose what kind of arrangement AC has with Jazz? We are the ones that got shit wages shoved down our throats, we didn't choose this pay scale AC's CCAA did that for us and our managers who faked (the reasons for) a Jazz CCAA. We didn't race to the bottom we were pushed.

The RJ was NOT the Jazz pilots decision but AC's managements decision.

Sky Service was tanking anyway and someone had to do the flying.

Don't be an ASS, nobody's scabbing anyone. I'm sure glad the above opinions are the minority at ACPA (or other places) and usually left to a disgruntled few and anonymous posters on web boards.

We do though have the power now and we're using it.

[Hackmech]

Never mind placing the stickers on their flight bags, its the stickers that are placed all over the flight deck is whats pissing alot of people off.

We are also a part of the company and we understand what you pilots are going through and we do support you, but spending half the night peeling goddamn alpa stickers from the map holders and sunvisors of the RJ's instead of working on the snags like we should be, its gonna end up ruffling more than a few feathers, I suggest a little more professional attitude or those alpa stickers will be replaced with those little yellow stickers you guys hate seeing so much, especially around your APU and AP control panels.

In Solidarity

[mattedfred]

My apologies for increasing your workload unnecessarily my fellow Jazzer.

I'm just curious who instructed you to spend time scraping stickers from the map holders instead of attending to other maintenance tasks?

[one8tee]

Hey Hackmech:

Did you actually just say you would intentionally not fix aircraft items that are safety relevent because you have to scrape off stickers?

I hope that was only a momentary lack of intelligence.

Grow up..

[hithere]

Hackmech,
Why are you even bothering to take the ALPA stickers off? It's not an airworthiness issue.

[Plim Sole]

I'm a Jazz pilot and the 1st thing I did when I saw a sticker on the chart holder was scrape it off and garbage it and I will continue to do so.

To my fellow Jazz pilots who think its appropriate or amusing to foul the cockpit with stickers... it isn't. Grow up.
If your that into it, get it tattooed on your arse cheek or forehead!